Relative newbie - advice on small yachts / gaining more experience, etc

[stevie69p]

Hello. Hope I am posting this in the right forum!

Back when I was in my mid 20's, I decided I wanted to learn to sail, and on reflection probably went about it the wrong way
I bought a knackered old plywood Hurley Felicity, read a book on how to sail and proceeded to go out and make a general pigs ear of it! I had a particularly hairy experience on the Clyde one breezy evening with teenage brother on board being sea-sick, on reflection I was carrying way too much sail, and I hadn't learned how to reef! The boat needed so much work that it wasn't worth trying to save, and I sold it on.

I then decided that maybe I should take a course, and plumped on doing Competent Crew. This was brilliant fun, also sailing on a proper 34 foot yacht in the Firth of Clyde in glorious weather was fantastic, and two days into the course, the instructor suggested that with a bit of extra help and swatting on the navigation side of things, I should probably do the day skipper syllabus instead, and that's what I did, and passed it fine. I bought a little 17 foot trailer sailer and did bits and bobs of weekend sailing on Loch Lomond. I was getting a bit better... After moving abroad for work, I sold the boat and did no sailing for another 12 years or so...

Anyway, at the beginning of this year I decided, now back home in Scotland, that with children now grown up, I'd like to get back into sailing, so I bought a dinghy and joined the local sailing club close to where I work. I have probably been out at least two evenings every week since April, plus every weekend and it has been a real learning experience (I should have probably started on a dinghy all those years ago!). I have done my RYA level 2 and have had the dinghy out on Loch Lomond for some weekend sailing. I've also been club racing at the weekends (mixed handicap fleet) and have had a couple of firsts and a couple of third places on corrected times, so far so good... I feel I am sailing much better...

My plan for next year is to step up to a small yacht as I would like to do some cruising and sleep on board.

There appears to be a huge variety of boats to choose from, but I want / need something that can easily be sailed single handed ideally under 7 metres to reduce berthing costs. So far I am leaning towards either a Hunter Horizon 23 or 232, or a Pegasus 700. I guess I am asking if these boats would make a wise choice for a single hander? I will want to berth the boat at a marina, as the launching / recovery faff is a bit annoying, plus lack of tow vehicle big enough. The idea would regular evening sailing on the Clyde, plus weekend cruises out on the Friday evening, back on Sunday evening type of thing...

I am also worrying myself a bit about navigation, tides, weather and so on...
I have probably forgotten most of the stuff that I learned on that day skippers course, but would going back over the theory be ok, or should I go and do the course again? I can't even find my certificate!
I have been out on the dinghy in some right good windy weather, and had some howling good fun in the process, but there is always safety boat cover in the event of a capsize. I don't want to go out on a yacht and make a hash of things and have to rely on the help of others.... Am I over thinking this?

 

[bitbaltic]

I have probably forgotten most of the stuff that I learned on that day skippers course, but would going back over the theory be ok, or should I go and do the course again? I can't even find my certificate!

Consider the shorebased Day Skipper navigation course. Cheaper and will re-teach you 'big boat' navigation. You probably will not get much out of redoing the practical at this point.

there is always safety boat cover in the event of a capsize. I don't want to go out on a yacht and make a hash of things and have to rely on the help of others

You aren't going to capsize a ballasted yacht in wind alone. Be sensible about sea states and you will be fine. More important for self-sufficiency will be the reliability of the engine in/with any yacht you buy.

Am I over thinking this?

Yes.

Your general plan seems sound.

There appears to be a huge variety of boats to choose from, but I want / need something that can easily be sailed single handed ideally under 7 metres to reduce berthing costs. So far I am leaning towards either a Hunter Horizon 23 or 232, or a Pegasus 700. I guess I am asking if these boats would make a wise choice for a single hander?

A man will be along to tell you about the Anderson 22 in a minute.

There is a massive choice at this size, suggest you give a bit more info of cruising ground, which marina and budget for boat (excl berthing, upgrade, maintenance) for people to be better able to help.

Welcome to the forum and good luck.

 

[Topcat47]

I"ve sailed both and there are plus and minus points for each boat. The Pegasus will be more cramped to live aboard (even for a weekend) but probably easier to handle on your own and easier to get aboard from a dinghy, if you're looking at swinging moorings. Bear in mind that examples of both boats you are considering will vary in set-up both from each other and within class.

Some Horizon 23s may have been home completed as it was available as "fully complete", "Sail-away" and hull and deck for home finishing.

 

[Seajet]

Well here's the Anderson 22 in my signature below - nothing like being predictable...

However you have stumbled on a golden age for people looking for good boats, a real ' buyer's market '.

There are LOADS of good boats available for buttons at the moment, however boats like the Centaur, while functionally brilliant, won't tell a novice sailor how a boat talks to him via the tiller.

If you could tell us please, where you intend to base your boat and what sort of sailing you envisage - cruiser racing / solo / with novice girlfriend / cross Channel or local ?

I'm sure a lot of people on here could make suggestions.

And unless it's an Anderson 22 they'll all be wrong ! :encouragement:

 

[jamie N]

A man will be along to tell you about the Anderson 22 in a minute.

Welcome to the forum and good luck.

SURELY, you're overlooking a Folkboat??

The OP seems very aware and conservative about his abilities and expectations; I wish you good luck in choosing the ideal boat for you, but the best option does probably come from the Tord Sunden stable in 1942 Sweden, many variants to be found.
Of course, other views may be put forward here, but....

 

[Topcat47]

If you could tell us please, where you intend to base your boat and what sort of sailing you envisage - cruiser racing / solo / with novice girlfriend / cross Channel or local ?

He did post that he'd returned to Scotland, so I think we can safely rule out X-Channel. That sort of leaves East or West coast. I don't actually know anyone who races round the cans solo, but as he's looking for a boat that can be easily single-handed, I'd guess that's not a priority right now. He's asking about 23'er to reduce costs, so the Centaur's a red herring. Apart from that I agree with almost everything you said.

BTW there aren't enough Anderson 22's to go round all of us, even if that's what we desired.

 

[Seajet]

If you could tell us please, where you intend to base your boat and what sort of sailing you envisage - cruiser racing / solo / with novice girlfriend / cross Channel or local ?

He did post that he'd returned to Scotland, so I think we can safely rule out X-Channel. That sort of leaves East or West coast. I don't actually know anyone who races round the cans solo, but as he's looking for a boat that can be easily single-handed, I'd guess that's not a priority right now. He's asking about 23'er to reduce costs, so the Centaur's a red herring. Apart from that I agree with almost everything you said.

BTW there aren't enough Anderson 22's to go round all of us, even if that's what we desired.

Well there are some quite illustrious A22 Transat' racers in Scotland, and we did investigate making new ones available to the masses, for what turned out to be quite a hefty fee...

Realistically, while it's not such a ' sailor's boat ' I've always thought the Trapper 500 / 501 a well kept secret.

 

[ChrisRayner]

The Hunter 23 is a variation on the Hunter Sonata. I built a Sonata from mouldings in 1988, it was the best sailing boat I've helmed. Light on the helm, responsive, and close-winded. Not the most capacious accommodation, and the shipping and unshipping of the outboard was a pain, but if you had anything from the lightest of zephyrs to a force 6 that didn't matter. They have a reputation for losing masts, although I never did. I believe that if you put up the spinnaker in a good blow and sit four or five large folk at the back of the cockpit with a hefty following swell you'll get the mast to 'pant' flexing forwards and backwards. That's how to lose the mast. Just don't.

There are lots for sale on the Sonata owners association website, although none in Scotland. If you can, I recommend you get a sail on one. Should suit you well.

 

[tatali0n]

I am also worrying myself a bit about navigation, tides, weather and so on... I have probably forgotten most of the stuff that I learned on that day skippers course, but would going back over the theory be ok, or should I go and do the course again? I can't even find my certificate!

If you haven't done the shore-based RYA Dayskipper yet, it's worth doing. However, a good book (I'd recommend Tom Cunliffe's Complete Day Skipper), charts for your sailing area and you can probably revise more than you need to know to stay safe in an evening or two. Just be very diligent about the weather forecasts and conservative as to whether or not you sail after you've seen what the conditions are likely to be like.

And GPS is your friend. Don't rely on it exclusively, or when the battery inevitably goes flat or the electronics otherwise fail, you'll be in the stick. But it's a great comfort having a screen that tells you where you are, where you'll be and what you're looking at is what you think it is.

You don't need a fancy chart plotter. An iPad or an Android tablet would do, or fail in that, your mobile phone.

As to choice of boat, I have a real soft spot for Hunter Sonatas, but as others have said, the field is wide for the choosing.

I have been out on the dinghy in some right good windy weather, and had some howling good fun in the process, but there is always safety boat cover in the event of a capsize. I don't want to go out on a yacht and make a hash of things and have to rely on the help of others.... Am I over thinking this?

A little. But over-thinking is far less likely to turn you into a statistic than its opposite. Your dinghy sailing experience will be a terrific advantage when you do move up to something bigger with a lid. All the same principles apply (albeit two years on from when I made the same move myself I still haven't completely reconciled myself to the idea that the boat is supposed to lean over when the wind blows and really won't get capsized by wind alone!)

 

[scottie]

The Clyde is a great place to sail and will take a lot of time to get to know.
Largs has mid week racing with Fairlie yacht club (but not single handed ) Largs covers the dinghies marina at Largs mooring at Fairlie there is also Helensburgh sailing club for both dinghy and keel boats you can moor at Rhu or use the marina with the option of James Watt Marina at port Glasgow
If you intend to sail Loch Lomond then a smallish 20-25 would be ideal I believe any bigger and you might run out of room.

 

[lpdsn]

There is another approach. If you re-did the DS you could just charter around the Clyde. Plenty of boats around there, although you'd probably need to get to YM Coastal level before they let you have the bigger or more expensive boats. There's much less commitment that way.

 

[bitbaltic]

There is another approach. If you re-did the DS you could just charter ....There's much less commitment that way.

But he wants to buy a boat.

Thank goodness the bloke is already dinghy sailing, or else the thread would have already been full of recommendations to do that instead, too.

 

[Buck Turgidson]

5grand will get you a Marieholm IF-Boat on yacht world right now.
Can't see many reasons why that wouldn't be ideal unless it's a tad long for you.

 

[PhillM]

I'd say do the day skipper practical in your proposed crusing grounds.

You can refresh your memory in a book the week before and even if your not up to scratch, you'll soon pick it back up when afloat. What's good about this approach is that you can learn about places you want to visit while on the course, gain first hand experience of the nav and pilotage. Keep your own notes and copy your cohorts (ask permission first!)

For the first year I owned a boat, I only visited places we had gone on the DS course as that reduced the stress of going into a new place while still learning my way around my own boat.

 

[lpdsn]

But he wants to buy a boat.

What he's actually said in his post is that he's been wanting to get back into sailing and after a bit of dinghy sailing is looking to step up to a cruiser where he can do a bit of cruising and sleep on board. I've only offered a suggested alternative to achieve that without buying a boat. I'm sure he's quite capable of ignoring that suggestion on his own if it is not to his taste.

Is there no petty committee position in your local sailing club you can take up to get things out of your system rather than trying to police the postings on this forum?

 

[stevie69p]

Thanks to all who have replied so far.

I should have added some further info I think...

My plan right now would be to berth at James Watt Dock Marina, in Greenock. (For ease of travel after work, plus cost)
Their pricing policy is cheaper up to 7 metres, and the Horizon comes in at 6.94 it seems. Other options are Ardrossan or Troon but to be honest these are both a bit far from the quick evening sailing in more sheltered waters.

Cruising grounds would be the Firth of Clyde, the various lochs branching off the Clyde, Bute, Arran, etc., possibly round to the west coast once more experienced. Likely to be sailing single handed on evenings, possibly with friend/s as crew on weekends who will have no experience.

Budget for the boat itself is up to around 8k. Ideally I would like something that has a modern interior. And that also sails well, points high. Just from looking at adverts so far, for interior layouts I quite like the Pegasus with its' slide away galley. The Hunter Horizon 23 and 232 are so far my favourite layout with the aft cabin, separate heads, nice modern galley. It looks a well thought out design. The Anderson 22 I had already researched but had ruled out due to being a bit old fashioned internally. On a lower budget I looked at a Pandora 700 that looked to be nicely fitted out, but has a lifting keel... I'm not sure if that would be a requirement. I had also looked at Hunter Sonatas, but again felt the internals to be a bit dated.

I will look into the day skipper theory syllabus, as I think I'm fairly well up to speed on the practical side, apart from anchoring maybe.

In relation to the Hunter Horizon 23, with its' self tacking jib... how does one heave to? Single handed, I think I will find the ability to heave to occasionally important. Ideally I'd want roller reefing / furling headsail, and slab reefing (2 line will be fine) on the main. Is some form of auto helm also needed?

Thanks!

 

[Seajet]

Thanks to all who have replied so far.

I should have added some further info I think...

My plan right now would be to berth at James Watt Dock Marina, in Greenock. (For ease of travel after work, plus cost)
Their pricing policy is cheaper up to 7 metres, and the Horizon comes in at 6.94 it seems. Other options are Ardrossan or Troon but to be honest these are both a bit far from the quick evening sailing in more sheltered waters.

Cruising grounds would be the Firth of Clyde, the various lochs branching off the Clyde, Bute, Arran, etc., possibly round to the west coast once more experienced. Likely to be sailing single handed on evenings, possibly with friend/s as crew on weekends who will have no experience.

Budget for the boat itself is up to around 8k. Ideally I would like something that has a modern interior. And that also sails well, points high. Just from looking at adverts so far, for interior layouts I quite like the Pegasus with its' slide away galley. The Hunter Horizon 23 and 232 are so far my favourite layout with the aft cabin, separate heads, nice modern galley. It looks a well thought out design. The Anderson 22 I had already researched but had ruled out due to being a bit old fashioned internally. On a lower budget I looked at a Pandora 700 that looked to be nicely fitted out, but has a lifting keel... I'm not sure if that would be a requirement. I had also looked at Hunter Sonatas, but again felt the internals to be a bit dated.

I will look into the day skipper theory syllabus, as I think I'm fairly well up to speed on the practical side, apart from anchoring maybe.

In relation to the Hunter Horizon 23, with its' self tacking jib... how does one heave to? Single handed, I think I will find the ability to heave to occasionally important. Ideally I'd want roller reefing / furling headsail, and slab reefing (2 line will be fine) on the main. Is some form of auto helm also needed?

Thanks!

A, yes a good autohelm is nigh on essential; make it a 2000 if you can, even on a well mannered boat

No matter what boat, FATIGUE IS THE ENEMY

B, in normal cross Channel / coastal sailing I've never felt like heaving to in 38 years; there's always too much rocky stuff to leeward, + ships etc

C, Seaworthiness may prove more important than trendy coloured interiors...

 

[scottie]

Some of the Hunters with ST have a line that takes the car to the end of the track fol heaving to

 

[scottie]

Sonata would give you one design racing

 

[Seajet]

5grand will get you a Marieholm IF-Boat on yacht world right now.
Can't see many reasons why that wouldn't be ideal unless it's a tad long for you.

An IF-Boat seems a lovely idea for Scottish waters, a beauty; and I'm with bitbaltic, have your own boat, don't hire one like a child by a pond !