Reflagging new-to-us boat in Med - which flag?

[billskip]

For sure but if you register now it is for lifetime. (I have proof of EU VAT etc but did not consider tis angle!) It is unlikely that an issued document saying your boat is Polish registered indefinitely can ever be 'withdrawn'?

It's not that the document be withdrawn, its the continuing recognition of that document/ flag status in foreign waters.

 

[Koeketiene]

For sure but if you register now it is for lifetime. (I have proof of EU VAT etc but did not consider tis angle!) It is unlikely that an issued document saying your boat is Polish registered indefinitely can ever be 'withdrawn'?

Unlikely? Maybe
Impossible? Probably not

 

[Star-Lord]

Welt seems Polish is the way to go for now if needed... Belgian Flag 'get around' was used for quite a few years.

 

[Tranona]

Welt seems Polish is the way to go for now if needed... Belgian Flag 'get around' was used for quite a few years.

Why? are on Part 1 that is arguably the best and recognised registration in the world and unlike many other "convenience" registrations is a register if title - that is proof that you own the boat. What are you hoping to achieve by dropping it?. Why pay almost £400 for an inferior flag just to save £10 a year for continuing your Part 1.

 

[billskip]

One

Why? are on Part 1 that is arguably the best and recognised registration in the world and unlike many other "convenience" registrations is a register if title - that is proof that you own the boat. What are you hoping to achieve by dropping it?. Why pay almost £400 for an inferior flag just to save £10 a year for continuing your Part 1.

One has to wonder sometimes

 

[Graham376]

Why? are on Part 1 that is arguably the best and recognised registration in the world and unlike many other "convenience" registrations is a register if title - that is proof that you own the boat. What are you hoping to achieve by dropping it?. Why pay almost £400 for an inferior flag just to save £10 a year for continuing your Part 1.

I agree. A while ago many people were using Dutch registration to avoid national regulations and when that was found to be illegal, they switched to Polish so, very likely Polish flagged boats will be a target for inspections.

 

[Star-Lord]

Why? are on Part 1 that is arguably the best and recognised registration in the world and unlike many other "convenience" registrations is a register if title - that is proof that you own the boat. What are you hoping to achieve by dropping it?. Why pay almost £400 for an inferior flag just to save £10 a year for continuing your Part 1

This ia my advise to the OG poster (first post). The title to this thread is: Reflagging new-to-us boat in Med - which flag?

 

[Star-Lord]

One

One has to wonder sometimes

If you had bothered to read and understand my posts regarding changing from Part 1 to Polish... I still have a couple of years left having already extended for 5 years. So after 10 years you need to get it re-surveyed and weighed etc etc. In the UK they actually measure your boat (they do in Premier) to make sure your length is as stated. In the Med I have yet to see this happen ever... so they take the length from your reg document, end of story. So... a) there are some parts of the Med (like Italy) where hauling out and getting a surveyor can cost 1.5k easily... and you have to be there.... and in these strange times that may not be possible what with 90 days in and 90 days out and Covid etc. Also.. there could be circumstances where previous measurements are a considerable advantage. The quality of thought is not what it used to be on this forum.

 

[Star-Lord]

One

One has to wonder sometimes

Didn't wonder very hard, eh?

 

[billskip]

Didn't wonder very hard, eh?

You carry on, enjoy.

 

[Tranona]

If you had bothered to read and understand my posts regarding changing from Part 1 to Polish... I still have a couple of years left having already extended for 5 years. So after 10 years you need to get it re-surveyed and weighed etc etc. In the UK they actually measure your boat (they do in Premier) to make sure your length is as stated. In the Med I have yet to see this happen ever... so they take the length from your reg document, end of story. So... a) there are some parts of the Med (like Italy) where hauling out and getting a surveyor can cost 1.5k easily... and you have to be there.... and in these strange times that may not be possible what with 90 days in and 90 days out and Covid etc. Also.. there could be circumstances where previous measurements are a considerable advantage. The quality of thought is not what it used to be on this forum.

Not sure you have a full grasp of the facts with respect to Part 1 Registration. There is no need to re measure for Part 1 if you renew every 5 years. Also the boat is never weighed - the survey uses a formula based on key measurements to determine "tonnage" which is nothing to do with weight but is a shipping calculation of carrying capacity. The length quoted for tonnage measurement is almost always less than length overall which is a great benefit to you if marina charges are based on the length on the certificate. For example my boat is 9.6 metres on the Part 1 certificate, but measurement used by my club marina is 10.2m. You are right marinas measuring boats individually is unusual but some UK marinas use it to ensure two things first that owners pay for the space they occupy and second for safety reasons where excess length from such things as bowsprits and davits can be dangerous by restricting space for other boats. It is simply not true that all marinas in the Med take registered length as a basis for charges - they may for casual berths because it is simple but for permanent berth charges the two most common measurements are berth size (rather than boat size) or area (measured length multiplied by breadth).

I have looked carefully at your posts on this thread and can find nothing that indicates your reasons for wanting to change registration and the benefits you hope to gain - nor have you answered the OP's question. As to the quality of thought on the forum, I suggest you reconsider your own thought processes as they seem to be based on a fundamental lack of understanding of registration of yachts, in particular the Part1 of the UK register.

 

[Koeketiene]

I agree. A while ago many people were using Dutch registration to avoid national regulations and when that was found to be illegal, they switched to Polish so, very likely Polish flagged boats will be a target for inspections.

I agree.
That's why I said in post #79: You've got to ask yourself: how long will it last?

 

[sailaboutvic]

There a few facts that's been miss ,
People with the old style Dutch reg that are still valid are still recognise , we. Know many who was still using them this year.
Of cause they not going to be able to renew them.

The withdrawal to non Dutch come to that Belgium as Belgium did the same was all about the German ship under Dutch flag who picked up the people from N Africa and then when refuse d entry into Italy start shouting they where Dutch reg boat and Italy couldn't stop. Them.
The Dutch wasn't happy and put a stop to it quickly followed by Belgium, not sure but I think France and Germany have done the same.

As for the polish flag reg , as I understand it , it's a life time Reg with very little rules , if it's life time how can the EU one day rejected it?

Let say the EU rejected the SSR can there ? Doubt it as it's a country flag same as the polish one is.

I agree I don't see any point in going polish but I also don't see any down side to it at this point if someone wish too , it seems neither do the Italian and French who are now using it.

 

[Tranona]

Acceptance or not of registration is nothing to do with the EU (yet) but individual sates as it is a requirement of international maritime law.

 

[sailaboutvic]

Acceptance or not of registration is nothing to do with the EU (yet) but individual sates as it is a requirement of international maritime law.

Sorry Tranona I'm a bit lost , where does international maritime law says a boat must be registered in the same country that the owner has citizenship?
I not heard of it.
To top that if that was the case there be not hundreds but thousand of private boats that are illegal registered, move forward a bit move,
Why then in the UK no registration is needed under a X size ( can't be bothered to look up the size 15?)
I guess the reason is country can have their own rules in the same way a country can allow a non citizen of that country to register it's boat in that country.

 

[Graham376]

The withdrawal to non Dutch come to that Belgium as Belgium did the same was all about the German ship under Dutch flag who picked up the people from N Africa and then when refuse d entry into Italy start shouting they where Dutch reg boat and Italy couldn't stop. Them.
The Dutch wasn't happy and put a stop to it quickly followed by Belgium, not sure but I think France and Germany have done the same.

Well before that incident, the Portuguese had already told their citizens using Dutch flag they would be fined if they continued to use it so, they started to use Polish and now coming under scrutiny again. Flags of convenience are usually used to hide ill gotten gains and avoid wealth taxes and in the Portuguese case the bureaucracy, mandatory surveys and classification, circulation tax etc. Having same flag as passport is generally less likely to cause problems.

 

[Tranona]

Sorry Tranona I'm a bit lost , where does international maritime law says a boat must be registered in the same country that the owner has citizenship?
I not heard of it.
To top that if that was the case there be not hundreds but thousand of private boats that are illegal registered, move forward a bit move,
Why then in the UK no registration is needed under a X size ( can't be bothered to look up the size 15?)
I guess the reason is country can have their own rules in the same way a country can allow a non citizen of that country to register it's boat in that country.

International law says that a boat must show evidence of its flag state when outside that state's territorial waters. The usual evidence is registration in the flag state and states tend to have only one official register, although within that may be different classes of registration (as in the UK). Most registries also have limitations on who can use them, some just to citizens but others allow a wider range. It is important to remember that the registration for the purposes of flag state identification is specific to the boat rather than the skipper or the owner. I don't recall ever saying that boat registration is a sign of owner's citizenship as clearly the opposite is the necessarily case, although it often is.

Registration can mean many things. In many states, particularly those with codded law registration with the state of ownership is compulsory, but this is not necessarily the same as for international recognition. In the UK there is no compulsion and in effect boats have no legal identity, but registration is required for evidence of flag state.

 

[Star-Lord]

Not sure you have a full grasp of the facts with respect to Part 1 Registration. There is no need to re measure for Part 1 if you renew every 5 years. Also the boat is never weighed - the survey uses a formula based on key measurements to determine "tonnage" which is nothing to do with weight but is a shipping calculation of carrying capacity. The length quoted for tonnage measurement is almost always less than length overall which is a great benefit to you if marina charges are based on the length on the certificate. For example my boat is 9.6 metres on the Part 1 certificate, but measurement used by my club marina is 10.2m. You are right marinas measuring boats individually is unusual but some UK marinas use it to ensure two things first that owners pay for the space they occupy and second for safety reasons where excess length from such things as bowsprits and davits can be dangerous by restricting space for other boats. It is simply not true that all marinas in the Med take registered length as a basis for charges - they may for casual berths because it is simple but for permanent berth charges the two most common measurements are berth size (rather than boat size) or area (measured length multiplied by breadth).

I have looked carefully at your posts on this thread and can find nothing that indicates your reasons for wanting to change registration and the benefits you hope to gain - nor have you answered the OP's question. As to the quality of thought on the forum, I suggest you reconsider your own thought processes as they seem to be based on a fundamental lack of understanding of registration of yachts, in particular the Part1 of the UK register.

I have been informed that after 10 years the boat needs an out of water survey before renewing Part 1 reg. The Polish option needs no survey (they will accept Part 1 reg details - like LOA etc) and it lasts a lifetime. So no renews (even renewing Part 1 after 5 years was a pain).

 

[westernman]

I have been informed that after 10 years the boat needs an out of water survey before renewing Part 1 reg. The Polish option needs no survey (they will accept Part 1 reg details - like LOA etc) and it lasts a lifetime. So no renews (even renewing Part 1 after 5 years was a pain).

Total hogwash.

No survey is ever needed to renew a UK Part 1 Reg. Been there done that having owned an UK Part 1 Reg boat for 13 years. Renewing has been very simple. As has changing my address.

However, UK insurance companies will usually want to see a survey every 10 years or so. That is not a hard and fast rule, but seems pretty common practice.

 

[Forty_Two]

Total hogwash.

No survey is ever needed to renew a UK Part 1 Reg. Been there done that having owned an UK Part 1 Reg boat for 13 years. Renewing has been very simple. As has changing my address.

However, UK insurance companies will usually want to see a survey every 10 years or so. That is not a hard and fast rule, but seems pretty common practice.

You are totally correct. After 34 years of owning the same boat a survey only ever required for insurance, never to renew my UK Part 1 reg.