Reefing main or Genoa.

[Laminar Flow]

I start reefing the main at 6-7m/s close hauled. At 10 m/s the alternative is furling the jib, loosing shape and wind angle. I am thinking of asking the sailmaker set in a jib reef pulling down as far as I can reach for setting a new sheet. Anybody tried?

I had a jib with reef points in the prefurler days. I was a bit of a faff to tie in and was no faster in the end than hanking on a smaller sail. I'm not sure how it would work with a furling system either.

 

[oldmanofthehills]

Wow! That's interesting. I've been in 'The much touted jib-mizzen combo on a ketch', and have found that the boat feels balanced with a comfortable level of heel, thought I must admit, not very fast.
To be much touted, the jib-mizzen combo must have come from somewhere, so if it isn't better, why has it enjored?
I admit to not knowing much about sail trimming, especially on a ketch, only what I picked up as a teenager sailing dinghies so I will have to give it a try.

A ketch is by definition a rig as used for catching fish (catch==ketch). Dump the mainsail and the fish hold and gutting deck are clear of swinging boom.

Yet all the while permitting the foresails still to be balanced and the boat even have slight weather helm with the mailsail still dumped. Fishing folk admire speed but need safe steady boat much more. Fishing boats tried to run out on broadish reach and tack back on its reverse - no beating to windward if avoidable!

Classically it enabled reduction in main sail area thus ease of sail handling. Long distance cruisers and short handed sailors still enjoy its virtues. And its prettier

 

[oldmanofthehills]

And of course a ketch can hang mizzen stay sail and fishermans sail betweem the masts and catch light off wind airs - works well if a bit fiddly - and I have added a water sail too. The Navigator is a sailor not a sailer but indulges me in this experimentage and adaption as in many other things. I know of folk who used to fly a mizzen spinnaker on a Pentland though that thought worries me.

Modern sail handling such as in-mast furling to enable bigger sloop sails, can fail. What are you going to do if F8 blows up mid passage and you cant reef?

 

[stranded]

What are you going to do if F8 blows up mid passage and you cant reef?

I guess you just file it in the extra big “What if” drawer in the “why I sail” filing cabinet. In truth, isn’t sailing an exercise in burying ones head in the sand?

 

[LadyInBed]

Many of the reasons for the existence of a ketch have disappeared with the advent of (more) efficient reefing systems. and on smaller boats I think it was just an affectation. Be that as it may, we've got one of those.
As designed, our ketch was simply not well balanced and the weatherhelm was just awful, so much so, that the rudder was almost immediately overwhelmed, in even the most benign conditions, and would stall out completely. It was quite simply poor design.
I fixed the rudder problem, but I also added, after much calculation, a 6' bowsprit and increased he SA by 214%, this equates to a longitudinal shift of CE of about 20% and is a good indication of how far off the original design was. She now balances herself to weather.

We can carry this SA up to just 22kts on the wind, but I always reef when we reach 20 degr. heel as our very wide cruiser stern starts to suck up a nasty quarter wave at that point and getting her more upright gains us a full knot.

The beamier the boat, the less likely she will be well balanced when heeled. Also, a shorter rig will cause less weatherhelm.

We have a super traditional, and for windward work less efficient, long keel with plenty of drag (the deeper at the stern type) as well as a very deep and straight forefoot and stem. At 13% of the 12-16% recommended minimum SA/LP (lateral plane) ratio for a long keel we are still in the ball park, albeit nearer the lower end. It is my firm conviction that to make any meaningful progress to windward, this type must be driven at it's maximum speed and with the most efficient sail combo possible, to keep lee way in check. The genoa/mizzen variant does not meet this requirement as it lacks the beneficial interaction between headsail and a sail mounted to a mast and in close proximity. Off the wind I can see how a longitudinally spread out distribution of sail can aid in balancing, it still does not have the same drive as a head sail interacting with the main, though the latter point is less pronounced off wind.

There are other benefits to keeping her moving as fast as is safely possible. Carrying the maximum SA capable at any given time much reduces a propensity to roll or pitch, even downhill, as it firms up her grip in the water. Lift is a factor to the square of the speed. For that alone and for my crew's sake I'm quite happy to pull in reefs and shake them out as often as it takes on passage. It is simply part of sailing. I have never understood the argument for a short rig that does not need reefing until you encounter storm force conditions ( a point often used to excuse the frumpy rigs commonly seen on my type of craft); it is so much more pleasant sailing in a F2 or 3 and when the sea state is much more hospitable as well, just ask my wife.

I have owned two ketches of my own, the other was a Water Witch, also blessed with a nasty weatherhelm, and I have sailed others and offshore as well. Still not my favourite rig for efficiency, can be quite pretty though.

Thanks for that explanation, I will give it some thought.

 

[oldmanofthehills]

I guess you just file it in the extra big “What if” drawer in the “why I sail” filing cabinet.

In truth, isn’t sailing an exercise in burying ones head in the sand?

Not for me it isnt.

As someone said "if you havent got a plan C, you are stuffed". However I was merely pointing out the dangers or disadvantages of some high tech solutions to the issue of sail handling, in particular to the move from ketch to sloop with bigger mainsail.

 

[LadyInBed]

A ketch is by definition a rig as used for catching fish (catch==ketch). Dump the mainsail and the fish hold and gutting deck are clear of swinging boom.

I didn't know that.

Yet all the while permitting the foresails still to be balanced and the boat even have slight weather helm with the mailsail still dumped. Fishing folk admire speed but need safe steady boat much more. Fishing boats tried to run out on broadish reach and tack back on its reverse - no beating to windward if avoidable!

Classically it enabled reduction in main sail area thus ease of sail handling. Long distance cruisers and short handed sailors still enjoy its virtues.

That would explain it.

And its prettier

Definitely ?

 

[geem]

And of course a ketch can hang mizzen stay sail and fishermans sail betweem the masts and catch light off wind airs - works well if a bit fiddly - and I have added a water sail too. The Navigator is a sailor not a sailer but indulges me in this experimentage and adaption as in many other things. I know of folk who used to fly a mizzen spinnaker on a Pentland though that thought worries me.

Modern sail handling such as in-mast furling to enable bigger sloop sails, can fail. What are you going to do if F8 blows up mid passage and you cant reef?

We have a mizzen staysail and use it a lot. Broad reaching in light airs when full main, genoa and mizzen aren't enough, we drop the mizzen and hoist the mizzen staysail. Our mizzen staysail is slightly larger than the 400sqft main and sheets to the end of the mizzen boom. It typically adds a knot to boat speed. It's super easy and quick to put up and take down. It's our lazy speed booster when putting the spinnaker up is too much trouble or we are expecting the wind to increase soon.
In light airs on long passages we do fly mizzen staysail, main and spinnaker giving us 2500sqft of sail. It does wonders for performance in light airs

 

[mattonthesea]

As others have said, it very much depends on the boat and what she's comfortable with but, all things being equal, on passage, I'd tend to put a reef in the main first, because it's more of a faff than rolling away a bit of genny, and I'd rather have the faff early, in calmer conditions than later when they're worse. On a shorter trip, I'd probably try the genny first, partly because I hope to get to my destination before I need the reef, but mainly 'cos I'm an idle git.

We also reef the main first for the same reason. Plus it means I avoid the big splashes if going to windward!

Our Rival 32 slows down when heeled more than 20 degrees so we use that as a reefing indicator.

 

[HenrikH]

I once departed from Les Sables, headed for La Coruna. That is also where the wind was blowing from, 12-14m/s. With two reefs and part furled jib, we ended up in Santander. Had we has a jib reef, I think we would have made Gijon. Example from UK Sailmakers:

 

[lustyd]

A friend of mine got a reef in his new jib just before sailing around the UK this year. He tried it a few times but gave up as it turned out to be pretty dangerous to use without dropping the sail, and if you're dropping the sail anyway then why reef it instead of a better sail?

 

[Koeketiene]

For my own boat, the LM27 (it also applies to its smaller sister the LM24), it can be simplified/interpreted as broadly -

• reef main before foresail for each step up in wind force
• Up to F3, full main, full genoa, little mast bend
• from F4 up, first reef in main, change genoa to jib (or furl genoa accordingly), add mast bend (to 10cm, 4”)
• From F5 up, second reef in main
• From F7 up, 3 reefs in main, storm jib

Experience will lead you to set similar guidelines for your own boat.
For instance, for Koeketiene, it's:
F5: one reef in the main
F6: two reefs in the main
F7: two reefs in the main and furl away about 1/3 of the jib
Never taken her out in F8 or above

 

[Koeketiene]

Haha it’s probably just me being a wimp I’m sure my boat would be fine with it ?

The ideal boat is one that can take much more than the crew.

 

[HenrikH]

A friend of mine got a reef in his new jib just before sailing around the UK this year. He tried it a few times but gave up as it turned out to be pretty dangerous to use without dropping the sail, and if you're dropping the sail anyway then why reef it instead of a better sail?

Shifting jib is better; preferably with a big crew, large storage and budget. Reefing jib should only require tying in the new sheet, then pulling the jib down. This opposed to sitting at the bow, feeding the new jib, then collecting the old. That part I know, just wonder if the alternative is easier, especially shorthanded?

 

[lustyd]

Shifting jib is better; preferably with a big crew, large storage and budget. Reefing jib should only require tying in the new sheet, then pulling the jib down. This opposed to sitting at the bow, feeding the new jib, then collecting the old. That part I know, just wonder if the alternative is easier, especially shorthanded?

The problem, as he explained it, is that you're trying to move sheets in a sail during an operation instigated because it was already too windy. There are two cringles, one at head height for a kneeling person, and you have to move the sheets in such a way as to not lose control. Then you have to tie up the bottom of the sail, which is full of wind at the time and very likely you're also crashing through waves to windward.

Seems like a good idea, but he assures me that it wasn't!

 

[Supertramp]

And of course a ketch can hang mizzen stay sail and fishermans sail betweem the masts and catch light off wind airs - works well if a bit fiddly - and I have added a water sail too. The Navigator is a sailor not a sailer but indulges me in this experimentage and adaption as in many other things. I know of folk who used to fly a mizzen spinnaker on a Pentland though that thought worries me.

Modern sail handling such as in-mast furling to enable bigger sloop sails, can fail. What are you going to do if F8 blows up mid passage and you cant reef?

Agree with your point and it does occupy my mind when planning what ifs. My in mast furling needs the boat on starboard tack to furl, so for me I would be more cautious on port than starboard. And I have never tried it in F8! I do have a spare halyard to douse it with in a dire circumstance (Plan D...).

The worry about in mast furling (which came with the boat) is offset by having a Solent stay and a set of jibs that are 1/2, 1/4 and a 10th the size of my genoa. So for me getting rid of the main and using various heads sails balanced with a full or reefed mizzen (slab) covers me up to the point when I stop and retire below!

I think the point coming out of this thread is to know your boat and its rig and have a set of options and steps to take as wind and conditions change. It will differ between boats, passages and crew strength.

 

[oldmanofthehills]

A friend of mine got a reef in his new jib just before sailing around the UK this year. He tried it a few times but gave up as it turned out to be pretty dangerous to use without dropping the sail, and if you're dropping the sail anyway then why reef it instead of a better sail?

The idea of trying to catch a flailing jib and move the sheets up to the reefing cringle, frightens me. The only way I could see it safely done is to attach duplicate sheets, or better still drop the sail and raise it in the foil - which is a much harder task than with a hank on. On a bucking foredeck deck in a bad blow and probably wave washed ! Ok maybe in harbour but then once it is done how on earth would you furl it further?

I dont expect it would make our boat go any better to windward than just furling on the foil.

I have an old reefable hank on jib I use as a stay sail, but thats another matter though sadly not a very successful one

 

[HenrikH]

The idea of trying to catch a flailing jib and move the sheets up to the reefing cringle, frightens me. The only way I could see it safely done is to attach duplicate sheets, or better still drop the sail and raise it in the foil - which is a much harder task than with a hank on. On a bucking foredeck deck in a bad blow and probably wave washed ! Ok maybe in harbour but then once it is done how on earth would you furl it further?

I dont expect it would make our boat go any better to windward than just furling on the foil.

I have an old reefable hank on jib I use as a stay sail, but thats another matter though sadly not a very successful one

The idea is to tie in an extra sheet, while fully sheeted, i.e the new sheet horn should be readily in reach. Then pull down the tack horn by a pre-rigged line and swap sheets.
The reefed sail should be able maintain the wing profile, something I have yet to see on a furled jib.
The part that looks a bit challenging to me is to get the jib back in position ready for furling…

 

[Daydream believer]

Mini transats use reefing jibs quite successfully.
I would imagine that one just releases the free sheet & moves it up to the reef position, whilst the working sheet is taking the weight. Then ease the working sheet & release some halyard, Go forward & secure what is now the new foot. Tension the halyard. Tack the boat. Take the weight on the now reefed sheet. Release the lower sheet (old working sheet) & move it up to the reefed position. Then tack back & tie the foot up ( One can tie it first if direction of the new tack is not a problem) . The filled sail will act as a safe guard against falling overboard in most parts of the operation & it can be done nearly as quick as it has taken me to write it. So i do not see any major problem on a smaller craft.

In the Stella fleet it was found that it was faster to put 3 rolls ( Early designs had roller reefing booms) in the main & keep the genoa flying as long as practical.Usually it could be held in F6 OK.. The boat was beautifully balanced thus & one could ease the main a bit & let go of the helm upwind for long periods.. After that one changed to working jib, then more rolls in the main, then storm jib with rolls in the main to maintain balance.At each change the helm could be left un attended upwind ,which showed if it was properly balanced.

 

[oldmanofthehills]

Mini transats use reefing jibs quite successfully.
I would imagine that one just releases the free sheet & moves it up to the reef position, whilst the working sheet is taking the weight. Then ease the working sheet & release some halyard, Go forward & secure what is now the new foot. Tension the halyard. Tack the boat. Take the weight on the now reefed sheet. Release the lower sheet (old working sheet) & move it up to the reefed position. Then tack back & tie the foot up ( One can tie it first if direction of the new tack is not a problem) . The filled sail will act as a safe guard against falling overboard in most parts of the operation & it can be done nearly as quick as it has taken me to write it. So i do not see any major problem on a smaller craft.

In the Stella fleet it was found that it was faster to put 3 rolls ( Early designs had roller reefing booms) in the main & keep the genoa flying as long as practical.Usually it could be held in F6 OK.. The boat was beautifully balanced thus & one could ease the main a bit & let go of the helm upwind for long periods.. After that one changed to working jib, then more rolls in the main, then storm jib with rolls in the main to maintain balance.At each change the helm could be left un attended upwind ,which showed if it was properly balanced.

I like the idea of using the slack sheet rather than an additional set for reefing jibs. However some of the depends a bit on your furling system. My present one is all at the furler, so no releasing from the mast foot, and with my furler out on a bowsprit all much more exposed.

Seems still a technique for young healthy racing crews on young healthy racing boats not a pair of elderly sailors on an elderly boat