Reefing main or Genoa.

[Supertramp]

I don’t quite understand this. We steer overwhelmingly on auto once out of harbour and I set things up so that the rudder is more or less centred, tending to a bar of weather helm. I do that quite successfully by adjusting the fore/aft balance of the sails. I don’t know how else I would do it?

Try relative angles of your sails. It's really the same principle as easing or depowering the main in a gust to reduce tendency to round up. In simple terms, easing the main relative to the jib means it luffs or loses wind before the jib, so the bow blows off a bit. When the main then fills fully again, power is restored until the next round up. Of course its easier with certain boat types, and probably different with a self tacker. And even easier with a ketch where the mizzen is more for balance than drive.

Really good to experiment with as you find the sweet spot for different sail configurations. If you start with a well balanced rig then you will find the balance as you reef down fore and aft sails so that the rudder remains balanced. In the "old" days this meant changing hanked on headsails but at least their shape stayed good as the wind increased. Today mains reef well but I dislike part furled genoa for their poor shape and given a choice would have a cutter rig or Solent stay for beating in fresh winds.

 

[geem]

With the advent of roller reefing the age of the 150% genny is over, even for boats that once were designed that way.
In comparison to contemporary designs this can let them appear a bit underrigged. Back in the day it was common to change down to a smaller headsail first before reefing the main, while now it makes much more sense to reef back to front with putting a reef in the main before rolling in a (much) smaller headsail. In view of the fact that the CLR will move forward with both speed and angle of heel this makes more sense. Additionally, no matter how well cut, a furled head sail is a much less effective foil and deeply reefed they are pretty useless.

On our ketch, I start to reef by taking down the mizzen first. Closehauled, a mizzen is just along for the ride and will not be missed. Next, by furling the genoa part way and then first reef in the main, followed by double reefed main and staysail only and finally just the staysail.
The much touted jib-mizzen combo on a ketch I have not found to be very efficient and certainly not on anything over 90 deg.

On our ketch we don't use the mizzen when sailing closer than 50 Deg to the apparent wind.
Going to weather we would furl the 130% Genoa away completely at about 20kts apparent over the deck and unfurl the jib. We are dropping from 700sqft to 285sqft instantly. It surprises me every time that we don't slow down with this step change in sail area. We also pitch less and point higher. As wind builds we then start to reef the main.
Off the wind in +30kts we would use small jib and mizzen. It's so nice not having the main up when the conditions get bumpy. With the 285sqft jib and 155sqft mizzen she balances perfectly and sails upright.

 

[stranded]

Try relative angles of your sails. It's really the same principle as easing or depowering the main in a gust to reduce tendency to round up. In simple terms, easing the main relative to the jib means it luffs or loses wind before the jib, so the bow blows off a bit. When the main then fills fully again, power is restored until the next round up. Of course its easier with certain boat types, and probably different with a self tacker. And even easier with a ketch where the mizzen is more for balance than drive.

Really good to experiment with as you find the sweet spot for different sail configurations. If you start with a well balanced rig then you will find the balance as you reef down fore and aft sails so that the rudder remains balanced. In the "old" days this meant changing hanked on headsails but at least their shape stayed good as the wind increased. Today mains reef well but I dislike part furled genoa for their poor shape and given a choice would have a cutter rig or Solent stay for beating in fresh winds.

Yes, that is what we do - down to having a heavy weather blade jib to hank on the removable inner forestay. My ‘not understanding’ was in relation to Will’s assertion that fore/aft sail balance is unimportant in ‘modern’ hulls - whether it’s reefing, trimming or swapping out sails - it seems to me it is still very important indeed, but I know from reading his many interesting points over the years that Will is way more knowledgable than me so trying to get to the bottom of what he means.

 

[johnalison]

Blimey that's a sturdy boat. We'd reef way before that and on that scale I'm not sure I'd ever hit the second reef before going to the pub!

It's an HR34 with a smaller 110% laminate jib. 19 knots apparent feels just right when going to windward and 17 a bit feeble. That's the advantage of having 40+% lead ballast and it makes cruising very relaxing.

 

[lustyd]

Haha it’s probably just me being a wimp I’m sure my boat would be fine with it ?

 

[geem]

It's an HR34 with a smaller 110% laminate jib. 19 knots apparent feels just right when going to windward and 17 a bit feeble. That's the advantage of having 40+% lead ballast and it makes cruising very relaxing.

We have 41% blast ratio but a tall rig. The 6000kg of lead is unheard of in any other 44footer. We still reef upwind in 20 kts apparent. The difference is likely to be that we use a 130% genoa. Without this we would be motoring in light winds

 

[dunedin]

Blimey that's a sturdy boat. We'd reef way before that and on that scale I'm not sure I'd ever hit the second reef before going to the pub!

As ever, it is easy to have a boat that doesnt need to reef until strong winds - generally by putting a small rig on it (ie under canvassed).

It is a matter of moments to slip a reef in on a well designed boat with a big rig. This boat can then sail effectively from F2 upwards, whereas the under canvassed boat can’t do anything in light winds except put the motor on.

 

[LittleSister]

The builder of my boat provided written recommendations/advice on the sequencing and timing of reefing, etc. for particular models. This practice seems a good idea, providing owners with a professional's suggested 'starting point' for their own decisions.

For my own boat, the LM27 (it also applies to its smaller sister the LM24), it can be simplified/interpreted as broadly -

• reef main before foresail for each step up in wind force
• Up to F3, full main, full genoa, little mast bend
• from F4 up, first reef in main, change genoa to jib (or furl genoa accordingly), add mast bend (to 10cm, 4”)
• From F5 up, second reef in main
• From F7 up, 3 reefs in main, storm jib

 

[dunedin]

Was that with the same winchs? When we switched to dyneema for the main halyard to try to eliminate stretch the winch wasn’t interested.

No change to winches or stoppers when we reduced reefing line size to reduce friction. As said, used cruising dyneema, so conventional (non slippy) outer cover on the dyneema core
PS. on more expensive new main halyard now use 4 turns if need max tension in strong wind upwind

 

[stranded]

No change to winches or stoppers when we reduced reefing line size to reduce friction. As said, used cruising dyneema, so conventional (non slippy) outer cover on the dyneema core
PS. on more expensive new main halyard now use 4 turns if need max tension in strong wind upwind

Excellent, thanks - I’ll try swapping out reef 1 this winter and see how it goes.

 

[oldmanofthehills]

On our old ketch I would just dump the main if at sea and sail on genoa and mizzen. Wouldnt make much different to our pointing which was always between 45 and 50 degrees, and lost at the most 0.5kt. If I harbour I would take up one reef on main in F5, and two reefs in F6, and of course furl genoa to suit once I was in the seaway .

On our LM27 I tried the same main dumping at sea in F6 and of course then discovered I couldnt round up enough to ease the strain and furl the genoa. So current approach is to one reef on main in upper F4 before leaving harbour ideally (or use our cutdown heavy weather main) then balance genoa if wind goes F5 or above. Reckon 50 degrees is best she will do as pointing higher speed drops and there is so much leeway one fears she is going sideways.

In F7 we tried trisail and furled genoa but a bit of a handfull and really didnt like going to windward. I have thought of expense of storm jib but clip on ones round furled genoa are expensive, expose crew to foredeck danger, and not really satisfactory. Stay sail jibs would be safer but fitting the stay itself is a yet another cost and the LM27 doesnt really lend itself to that treatment. Navigator suggested we just turn engine on in such situations if we really need to bang to windward

Seems slightly more sail then LittleSisters suggestion but same ball park

 

[LadyInBed]

On our ketch, I start to reef by taking down the mizzen first. Closehauled, a mizzen is just along for the ride and will not be missed. Next, by furling the genoa part way and then first reef in the main, followed by double reefed main and staysail only and finally just the staysail.

Wow! That's interesting. I've been in 'The much touted jib-mizzen combo on a ketch', and have found that the boat feels balanced with a comfortable level of heel, thought I must admit, not very fast.
To be much touted, the jib-mizzen combo must have come from somewhere, so if it isn't better, why has it enjored?
I admit to not knowing much about sail trimming, especially on a ketch, only what I picked up as a teenager sailing dinghies so I will have to give it a try.

 

[geem]

On our old ketch I would just dump the main if at sea and sail on genoa and mizzen. Wouldnt make much different to our pointing which was always between 45 and 50 degrees, and lost at the most 0.5kt. If I harbour I would take up one reef on main in F5, and two reefs in F6, and of course furl genoa to suit once I was in the seaway .

On our LM27 I tried the same main dumping at sea in F6 and of course then discovered I couldnt round up enough to ease the strain and furl the genoa. So current approach is to one reef on main in upper F4 before leaving harbour ideally (or use our cutdown heavy weather main) then balance genoa if wind goes F5 or above. Reckon 50 degrees is best she will do as pointing higher speed drops and there is so much leeway one fears she is going sideways.

In F7 we tried trisail and furled genoa but a bit of a handfull and really didnt like going to windward. I have thought of expense of storm jib but clip on ones round furled genoa are expensive, expose crew to foredeck danger, and not really satisfactory. Stay sail jibs would be safer but fitting the stay itself is a yet another cost and the LM27 doesnt really lend itself to that treatment. Navigator suggested we just turn engine on in such situations if we really need to bang to windward

Seems slightly more sail then LittleSisters suggestion but same ball park

What was your old ketch? In flat water and light winds with full Genoa and main we find sailing at 35 degrees works fine. She will tack through 90 degrees no problem. In 20-28 kts apparent when we are on two reefs on the main and small jib we still point to 35deg and still tack through 90 degrees with seas circa 2/2.5m.
Our Van de Stadt has 2.2m draft on a long fin and skeg so leeway is minimal

 

[dunedin]

Wow! That's interesting. I've been in 'The much touted jib-mizzen combo on a ketch', and have found that the boat feels balanced with a comfortable level of heel, thought I must admit, not very fast.
To be much touted, the jib-mizzen combo must have come from somewhere, so if it isn't better, why has it enjored?
I admit to not knowing much about sail trimming, especially on a ketch, only what I picked up as a teenager sailing dinghies so I will have to give it a try.

I remember using the genoa / mizzen option on a Nantucket Clipper and it was very relaxing (nothing is ever speedy on a ketch or yawl, unless it is an 80ft Whitbread type).
I think where this works is by keeping the large genoa filling well, and avoiding the inefficiency of roller furling. The mizzen well back doesn’t necessarily give much drive, but due to position does a great job of eliminating the weather helm.
Some ketches may be differnt, but if it is balanced under 3 sails, having only the front two is likely to give extra weather helm just when don’t need it.

 

[LittleSister]

Seems slightly more sail then LittleSisters suggestion but same ball park

Just to clarify, that's LM's suggestion, not mine (though my translation/interpretation from Danish, metres per second wind speed, roller-reefing main and hank-on foresails, etc.).

My recommendation is F7 and above - hide under the bedclothes!

 

[HenrikH]

I start reefing the main at 6-7m/s close hauled. At 10 m/s the alternative is furling the jib, loosing shape and wind angle. I am thinking of asking the sailmaker set in a jib reef pulling down as far as I can reach for setting a new sheet. Anybody tried?

 

[johnalison]

As ever, it is easy to have a boat that doesnt need to reef until strong winds - generally by putting a small rig on it (ie under canvassed).

It is a matter of moments to slip a reef in on a well designed boat with a big rig. This boat can then sail effectively from F2 upwards, whereas the under canvassed boat can’t do anything in light winds except put the motor on.

I wouldn't describe my boat as under-canvassed, though it doesn't carry as much sail as today's race-derived boats. Even with our reduced jib we more often than not walk past similar or even larger boats in light winds, though not at the moment with our foul bottom perhaps. The compromise we settled for has suited us well for twenty years of mostly Channel and North Sea, and we lost little when racing against genoa-equipped sisters. When I retired I decided that sailing would be all F3-4s and an easy time generally but it didn't turn out like that as winds seem to have increased in the summers, and much of our sailing was F5-6s.

 

[johnalison]

I start reefing the main at 6-7m/s close hauled. At 10 m/s the alternative is furling the jib, loosing shape and wind angle. I am thinking of asking the sailmaker set in a jib reef pulling down as far as I can reach for setting a new sheet. Anybody tried?

That sounds like making work for yourself, unless you enjoy being on the foredeck in increasing wind. If you are concerned about sail shape, then get a laminate jib and you will retain most of the performance even part-furled.

 

[Laminar Flow]

Wow! That's interesting. I've been in 'The much touted jib-mizzen combo on a ketch', and have found that the boat feels balanced with a comfortable level of heel, thought I must admit, not very fast.
To be much touted, the jib-mizzen combo must have come from somewhere, so if it isn't better, why has it enjored?
I admit to not knowing much about sail trimming, especially on a ketch, only what I picked up as a teenager sailing dinghies so I will have to give it a try.

Many of the reasons for the existence of a ketch have disappeared with the advent of (more) efficient reefing systems. and on smaller boats I think it was just an affectation. Be that as it may, we've got one of those.
As designed, our ketch was simply not well balanced and the weatherhelm was just awful, so much so, that the rudder was almost immediately overwhelmed, in even the most benign conditions, and would stall out completely. It was quite simply poor design.
I fixed the rudder problem, but I also added, after much calculation, a 6' bowsprit and increased he SA by 214%, this equates to a longitudinal shift of CE of about 20% and is a good indication of how far off the original design was. She now balances herself to weather.

We can carry this SA up to just 22kts on the wind, but I always reef when we reach 20 degr. heel as our very wide cruiser stern starts to suck up a nasty quarter wave at that point and getting her more upright gains us a full knot.

The beamier the boat, the less likely she will be well balanced when heeled. Also, a shorter rig will cause less weatherhelm.

We have a super traditional, and for windward work less efficient, long keel with plenty of drag (the deeper at the stern type) as well as a very deep and straight forefoot and stem. At 13% of the 12-16% recommended minimum SA/LP (lateral plane) ratio for a long keel we are still in the ball park, albeit nearer the lower end. It is my firm conviction that to make any meaningful progress to windward, this type must be driven at it's maximum speed and with the most efficient sail combo possible, to keep lee way in check. The genoa/mizzen variant does not meet this requirement as it lacks the beneficial interaction between headsail and a sail mounted to a mast and in close proximity. Off the wind I can see how a longitudinally spread out distribution of sail can aid in balancing, it still does not have the same drive as a head sail interacting with the main, though the latter point is less pronounced off wind.

There are other benefits to keeping her moving as fast as is safely possible. Carrying the maximum SA capable at any given time much reduces a propensity to roll or pitch, even downhill, as it firms up her grip in the water. Lift is a factor to the square of the speed. For that alone and for my crew's sake I'm quite happy to pull in reefs and shake them out as often as it takes on passage. It is simply part of sailing. I have never understood the argument for a short rig that does not need reefing until you encounter storm force conditions ( a point often used to excuse the frumpy rigs commonly seen on my type of craft); it is so much more pleasant sailing in a F2 or 3 and when the sea state is much more hospitable as well, just ask my wife.

I have owned two ketches of my own, the other was a Water Witch, also blessed with a nasty weatherhelm, and I have sailed others and offshore as well. Still not my favourite rig for efficiency, can be quite pretty though.

 

[oldmanofthehills]

What was your old ketch? In flat water and light winds with full Genoa and main we find sailing at 35 degrees works fine. She will tack through 90 degrees no problem. In 20-28 kts apparent when we are on two reefs on the main and small jib we still point to 35deg and still tack through 90 degrees with seas circa 2/2.5m. Our Van de Stadt has 2.2m draft on a long fin and skeg so leeway is minimal

Our old boat was a Westerly Pentland bilge keeler with full bows. Didnt cut through the water like a knife ,so slowish but didnt plunge. We could get her to 40 degrees and still speed was good, but just not in the direction the boat was heading. A typical cruising boat suited for shallow harbours , easy handling and heavy weather.

Dunedidin is correct as to ketch virtues. I was sold when I saw a single handed ketch win a race against full crewed sloops in F6 turning to F7 off Brightlingsea. He was maybe running fourth when the wind sprang up. He dumped the main, but surged ahead barely losing pace while the rest of the fleet heeled and flustered trying to reef.

I miss our ketch but Navigator doesnt miss sitting in the rain and needing to leave the helm to look at charts or turn on kettle