Reefing main or Genoa.

[Iliade]

Further to the whether to reef or ease thread.

How about balance? For short periods I tend to leave the, very occasionally flattened, main fully up then reduce the headsail size as required. Sometimes to the point where I'm on main alone. If it is a longer sail or windy when raising the main I will reef the main appropriately, or even a little too much, then carry more headsail to achieve the required drive. I'll also revert to the hank on staysails if bringing the genoa in too much for good shape.

Just how bad is this practice considered to be? It doesn't ever seem to cause excessive weather or lee helm, but then I have a wheel which may disguise that.

 

[dunedin]

This will depend a lot on boat and sail plan. Many older boats have huge masthead 150% genoas and small mainsails (based on a racing fashion of the day), whereas modern boats often have narrower (eg 105%) jibs at 7/8ths mast height.
With the latter we put in mainsail reefs 1 and 2 before starting to reef any jib (single line reefing and stack pack makes putting reefs in and out a dawdle, without leaving the cockpit). Sometimes even go for reef 3 with full jib if beating in flat water, as even with foam luff jib sets better and can point higher with full jib.

With older masthead genoa will have to reef genoa earlier - which makes a foam luff and high quality (preferably laminate) genoa essential to avoid excess heeling and poor pointing ability.

 

[stranded]

This will depend a lot on boat and sail plan. Many older boats have huge masthead 150% genoas and small mainsails (based on a racing fashion of the day), whereas modern boats often have narrower (eg 105%) jibs at 7/8ths mast height.
With the latter we put in mainsail reefs 1 and 2 before starting to reef any jib (single line reefing and stack pack makes putting reefs in and out a dawdle, without leaving the cockpit). Sometimes even go for reef 3 with full jib if beating in flat water, as even with foam luff jib sets better and can point higher with full jib.

With older masthead genoa will have to reef genoa earlier - which makes a foam luff and high quality (preferably laminate) genoa essential to avoid excess heeling and poor pointing ability.

We have that massive masthead Genoa - and it stays in the garage while local sailing - short tacking it is a bugger as is the lack of visibility. For busy/tight waters we had a 115% high cut genny made by Sanders. Surprisingly still balances nicely in normal winds but anyway for the reasons you give we would reef the main first - easier and without the flapping.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

... It doesn't ever seem to cause excessive weather or lee helm, but then I have a wheel which may disguise that.

With my wheel I use a two spokes rule, to gauge weather helm. Its not really felt as a force, but it is noticeable as a counter to rounding up, also leeway and stern wake become obvious. So if you cant feel wether helm, use a marker on the wheel to estimate it. I have an older hull shape, so sailing her with gunwales in the water is easy to do but its just all drag, hence at 2 spokes I start to reef genoa. This is for close hauled.

 

[lustyd]

Just how bad is this practice considered to be?

If your reefing is hard enough to justify the two threads it would suggest you don't want to reef in an emergency when the wind really builds. As such I'd probably suggest working the other way around and being normally reefed a little too much so that you never have to reef in a strong wind or rough sea.

It's neither good or bad practice as long as you're comfortable and the boat is coping, but the phrase "if you're thinking about reefing you should reef" exists for good reason!

 

[TiggerToo]

.... the phrase "if you're thinking about reefing you should reef" exists for good reason!

much as I am wary of easy platitudes, this one is really true. The point is that I find there is a broad overlap between reef/not reef, and the comfort and efficiency of reef as the wind builds really does more than match the fictitious feeling of speed, as the boat heels over.

In fact,I think that over-heeling is a bit like those souped up scooters: lots of noise and white smoke, but not much speed/power.

 

[Mountaineer]

much as I am wary of easy platitudes, this one is really true. The point is that I find there is a broad overlap between reef/not reef, and the comfort and efficiency of reef as the wind builds really does more than match the fictitious feeling of speed, as the boat heels over.

In fact,I think that over-heeling is a bit like those souped up scooters: lots of noise and white smoke, but not much speed/power.

It also depends on your hull shape. We have an older boat with a modest beam and long forefoot and deep sections, sailing well heeled to windward is fine unless your trying to cook a meal! More modern boats with flatter sections seem to sail better when sailed more upright and thus reefed a bit earlier. Agree with reefing early - you can always shake them out later. maintaining balance between main and foresail and avoiding a lot of weather helm is important. Excessive weather helm is tiring and slows you down.

 

[Koeketiene]

I sail an older boat - initially she had a short mast, small main and HUGE genoa (165%).
About twenty years ago, she received a new, taller mast and longer boom.
This resulted in a revised sailplan of larger main and a smaller jib (105%).
Both main and jib now come in at 34 m/sq.
I find this creates a balanced boat.
When it comes to reefing, I always reef the main before I start putting turns on the jib.
Sailshape of the jib being the main reason.
Also, the boat heels less when I reef the main rather than furl the jib.

 

[Laminar Flow]

With the advent of roller reefing the age of the 150% genny is over, even for boats that once were designed that way.
In comparison to contemporary designs this can let them appear a bit underrigged. Back in the day it was common to change down to a smaller headsail first before reefing the main, while now it makes much more sense to reef back to front with putting a reef in the main before rolling in a (much) smaller headsail. In view of the fact that the CLR will move forward with both speed and angle of heel this makes more sense. Additionally, no matter how well cut, a furled head sail is a much less effective foil and deeply reefed they are pretty useless.

On our ketch, I start to reef by taking down the mizzen first. Closehauled, a mizzen is just along for the ride and will not be missed. Next, by furling the genoa part way and then first reef in the main, followed by double reefed main and staysail only and finally just the staysail.
The much touted jib-mizzen combo on a ketch I have not found to be very efficient and certainly not on anything over 90 deg.

 

[johnalison]

It also depends on your hull shape. We have an older boat with a modest beam and long forefoot and deep sections, sailing well heeled to windward is fine unless your trying to cook a meal! More modern boats with flatter sections seem to sail better when sailed more upright and thus reefed a bit earlier. Agree with reefing early - you can always shake them out later. maintaining balance between main and foresail and avoiding a lot of weather helm is important. Excessive weather helm is tiring and slows you down.

Taking in a reef is much easier for me than shaking one out, which is a bit of a pain as one either has to pull the lines out of the clew or settle for winching it up slowly. I will happily set out without a reef knowing that the odds are that I will have to take one in.

 

[TiggerToo]

Taking in a reef is much easier for me than shaking one out...

us too. But I have learnt that if I think we may need a reef BEFORE leaving harbour, we probably need two...

 

[jwilson]

On a modern AWB I reef the main very early - if there is any swell/sea the main gets reefed above about 12 knots to windward. In flat water you can hold full main to 15-18 knots, but to be honest the boat goes and balances better with one and sometimes two (out of three) reefs in. This is a fairly typical modern boat that does not like to sail heeled.

On my old heavy long-keeler I could hold full sail until you were viewing the ocean through the coachroof windows, and water was swilling into the cockpit. She would still steer happily maybe 40 degrees heeled, and went fastest at somewhere like 20 degrees heeled. Modern AWB fights the helm and slows down above 10-15 degrees.

 

[TiggerToo]

On a modern AWB I reef the main very early - if there is any swell/sea the main gets reefed above about 12 knots to windward. In flat water you can hold full main to 15-18 knots, but to be honest the boat goes and balances better with one and sometimes two (out of three) reefs in. This is a fairly typical modern boat that does not like to sail heeled.

it feels like we are sailing similar boats, here

 

[dunedin]

Taking in a reef is much easier for me than shaking one out, which is a bit of a pain as one either has to pull the lines out of the clew or settle for winching it up slowly. I will happily set out without a reef knowing that the odds are that I will have to take one in.

You need to sort the friction in the system . We swapped to thinner cruising dyneema for the reefing lines which helped

 

[johnalison]

You need to sort the friction in the system . We swapped to thinner cruising dyneema for the reefing lines which helped

It's on my list, but we are not doing enough of this kind of sailing now to make it a priority. We reef at 22-24kn apparent when sailing to windward, so it doesn't happen that often.

 

[lustyd]

Blimey that's a sturdy boat. We'd reef way before that and on that scale I'm not sure I'd ever hit the second reef before going to the pub!

 

[stranded]

You need to sort the friction in the system . We swapped to thinner cruising dyneema for the reefing lines which helped

Was that with the same winchs? When we switched to dyneema for the main halyard to try to eliminate stretch the winch wasn’t interested.

 

[William_H]

I think on modern hull shapes (and it does vary) the concept of lateral balance of jib and main area is over rated. Yes in light winds you can discern and even steer the boat by sail area and sheet tension but as soon as wind comes up it is the heeling that produces weather helm. So in terms of reefing it does not matter so much which sail you shorten first. I would always go for smaller jib then reef main but I never sail with no jib. All comments relate to beating in to wind. ol'will

 

[stranded]

I think on modern hull shapes (and it does vary) the concept of lateral balance of jib and main area is over rated. Yes in light winds you can discern and even steer the boat by sail area and sheet tension but as soon as wind comes up it is the heeling that produces weather helm. So in terms of reefing it does not matter so much which sail you shorten first. I would always go for smaller jib then reef main but I never sail with no jib. All comments relate to beating in to wind. ol'will

I don’t quite understand this. We steer overwhelmingly on auto once out of harbour and I set things up so that the rudder is more or less centred, tending to a bar of weather helm. I do that quite successfully by adjusting the fore/aft balance of the sails. I don’t know how else I would do it?

 

[Stemar]

As others have said, it very much depends on the boat and what she's comfortable with but, all things being equal, on passage, I'd tend to put a reef in the main first, because it's more of a faff than rolling away a bit of genny, and I'd rather have the faff early, in calmer conditions than later when they're worse. On a shorter trip, I'd probably try the genny first, partly because I hope to get to my destination before I need the reef, but mainly 'cos I'm an idle git.