Reefing a furling genoa

[Wing Mark]

No instructor, mentor, club member or fellow sailor has mentioned halyard tension to me as an aid to easier furling or reefing and no mention is made of this in my comprehensive owners boat manual.

I am careful not to overtension and overload the furler drum and top swivel bearings.

I was looking over a boat with a surveyor the other day.
He made the point that if the halyard needs to be eased to make the furler easy to turn, it tells you the swivels need urgent attention.

 

[rotrax]

But you said that you did not put much tension on the halyard to avoid over tension in the drum. I pointed out that you could, provided you eased it prior to reefing. It is obvious that you are not doing this & not being told other things ( I wonder why? ) I just thought it might help in passing
Sorry if I have rattled your cage

No cage rattled.

I did not say I put little tesion on the halyard, I stated I was careful not to overload the drum and top swivel bearings. I really dont think extra luff tension woud give our heavy old tub any increase in sailing performance.

The way we use our boat and how we do the sailing bit has been adequate and trouble free for six seasons.

If you saw the rig and its limitations you would no doubt adopt the same policy.

Mainsheet mounted on the pilot house roof, no traveller, tiny jib with a Hoyt self tacking boom, dirty but good condition sails. All sheeting/outhauls from the rear cockpit. Halyards at the mast.

Before you jump to another delusion, we have TWO cockpits, the rear immediatly behind the pilot house and a much larger one behind the mast nicknamed 'the jaccuzi' - because that is what it looks like. An option for our boat is the Lewmar 'Stowinch' system which allows all sail control to be powered. We dont have that. It costs 20K plus installed! Not for us, too rich by far.

Despite the boats limitations as a pure sailing boat, our passage speed has increased by 1.5 kts compared to our previous aft cockpit cruising yacht. For a couple of mature - mid 70's - sailors, it is proving ideal. We are unashamed travellers by water, not purist sailors.

FYI, the luff ropes are a very tight fit in the foils. Slacking the halyards will not drop the sails, they both have to be physically pulled down. And winched up. No chance of working them up without winching - for us, anyway. So, once my sails are fitted, tensioned to MY liking, checked after a couple of uses, that is it until we take them down for the winter.

It works for me, which is what is important.

Almost 8,000 NM's without a sail problem. Why would I change a regime that works?

Motor Sailers Rule OK..........................

 

[Moodysailor]

I wonder if these guys got the memo about never using a winch (around 2:15 in) ?

I would say it is very much dependent on the individual yacht, but over a certain size becomes a necessary. This has been my experience at least.

Expedition yacht 77'

 

[Daydream believer]

Motor Sailers Rule OK..........................

Quits then- Nothing more to add

 

[sailaboutvic]

@Rotax
Question on reefing, sails,Mooring and so on , The answers are going to be so different,
And they have to be, different boats ,size weight, different age groups and even fitness all come into play.
If the question was ask 40 years ago I be say hey not problem , but then the boat was 25 foot , the sails much smaller and I was probably twice as fit as I am now .

If people want to see if there a problem with the furling gear , go forward and give it a pull , if it comes in easily, the problem isn't the gear or tension of sails.

I think it's Robih who said he would give it a go and take the tension of the halyard ,
Be great if it works for him,

But even if it does I have to wonder for how long will someone go forward and tension it when unfurl then again when he want to furl and what about the times he get caught out .
Need to get a reef in ,
wind picked up 18/20/25kts sail flapping because you crew /wife/partner cant control sheet whipping like mad , are they still going to go forward stand on a pitching deck and piss about taken tension of the halyard ,
some how I don't thing so.
Robih just using you as an example, not mean anything by it.
I have to be honest very rear I seen anyone on the foredeck when the sail is unfurled
Unless it's a racing boat,

 

[Spirit (of Glenans)]

Is that really the way to sail? With a sail always part furled. The shape must be spoiled over time

A half turn, like about 1.25 inches around the circumference of the foil!

 

[Spirit (of Glenans)]

I think you find most don't .
we don't and to do so means every time you want to furl you have to climb out of the CC and go to the mast .
I May just as well have a Hank on jib .
But hey every one to their own .
I not seen in any sail Manuel to do that with a furler ,

There's a big difference between going to the mast for a moment and being immersed in breaking waves while sitting on a foresail to prevent it being washed/blown away!

 

[Spirit (of Glenans)]

We have an Oyster 406 (centre cockpit) - furling line goes behind cockpit and then forward, so about a 150 degree turn. Putting a better (bigger) block on the furling line made things easier. jib is around 150% and with the previous Rotostay IV furler (20 years old), we could - just - furl by hand, if the conditions were benign; however with any strong wind we needed to use a winch. After one particularly windy day sail, and difficult furl, I examined the furler and found the foil had snapped above the furler. Due to a combination of circumstances I decided that it would be better to replace the furling gear with a Selden Furlex, rather than mending the existing gear, and what a difference! Obviously pulling in a 150% genoa can still be a struggle in a wind, but the modern gear is so, so much better! We have not needed to use a winch since fitting the new furling gear.

You have to finnd out what made the foil snap above the furler. I crewed (Dublin to Baiona), on a boat going to join the ARC. The furling line snapped three times. We replaced it in Arklow and in Newlyn where we examied the run of the line to see what was causing the chafe and couldn't find anything conclusive.
Needless to say it broke again off Brittainy and we decided to run for Concarneau. In the worsening conditions the skipper was reluctant to go forward and deal manualy with the full genoa thet was rolling us badly, and we had two accidental gybes, resulting in a cracked boom. What he had neglected to tell us was that the line had broken twice before, in the couple of months after he had first purchased the boat. It turned out that on fitting out, the riggers had neglected to fully tighten the setscrews holding the guide cage in place. If he had investigated the first break properly he would not have caused himself considerable expense or worse put the crew's life in danger.

 

[Spirit (of Glenans)]

Interesting question as DD brought it up .
how many here with boats over 12 mts go forward and take tension off the halyard, ?no let's make it more interesting 11mts ,
And how many when they need to reef also take tension off their Genny halyard ?

I think, by the time most people need to reef they will have increased the tension on the halliard, so as to depower the sail.

 

[Spirit (of Glenans)]

I must admit, I never sailed with anyone who instructed the genoa halliard to be eased prior to furling, and never thought of doing it myself, so have never done this.

Having read this, I will try it in future! It does seem to make sense.

It's commoly taught in sailing schools, and mentioned in the most popular sailing manuals.

 

[Spirit (of Glenans)]

No instructor, mentor, club member or fellow sailor has mentioned halyard tension to me as an aid to easier furling or reefing and no mention is made of this in my comprehensive owners boat manual.

I am careful not to overtension and overload the furler drum and top swivel bearings.

It's mentioned in sailing manuals.

 

[[70521]]

No instructor, mentor, club member or fellow sailor has mentioned halyard tension to me as an aid to easier furling or reefing and no mention is made of this in my comprehensive owners boat manual.

I've always done it. Perhaps it is something everybody thinks that everybody else knows what to do.

Saying that this summer's trip north was an eye opener when it came to simple OXOs on the pontoon. The most surprising example was a 60 foot motor boat with about eight Xs. Each one had a locking turn that was the 'wrong way' and would not undo easily. I would hate to want to move the boat in a hurry.

 

[[70521]]

I was looking over a boat with a surveyor the other day.
He made the point that if the halyard needs to be eased to make the furler easy to turn, it tells you the swivels need urgent attention.

How on earth did he come to that conclusion?

 

[[70521]]

...

 

[Spirit (of Glenans)]

This is most like the problem some are finding , they over tension the sail .
In our case it's the way the furling line runs , as I said if I stand on the stern it manageable ,
If there was another way I could feed it back to the cockpit I would and the problem would be solved ,
The other problem is if people pull the sail out without control the furling line ,
Then it can get twisted in the drum.

On some boats there are some things that can be done to help ,
on others the only way is a winch or have a weight lifter as a crew .

Every thing suggest here isn't new , we tryed them all in the pass .

As for the halyard twisting around the foil , this happen when you don't have s guide eye on the top of the mast to thread the halyard through .
Our boat is 14.5 ton it's not a light races , losing the halyard in light wind or thighten mod winds and getting a extra .3 of a knot not worth the trouble.
Well that's my option .
But if it works for others that's great .

A genoa with the halyard lightly tensioned will have its draught aft which is perfect for light airs, but when the wind increases tightening the halyard will bring the draft forward, lessening the tendency for the boat to be heeled excessively, and allowing the wind power to be converted into forward motion, rather than moving sideways. It doesn't have to be a race tactic, it's about efficiency, VMG. i.e. getting into port before the pub or chippie closes

 

[Spirit (of Glenans)]

No cage rattled.

I did not say I put little tesion on the halyard, I stated I was careful not to overload the drum and top swivel bearings. I really dont think extra luff tension woud give our heavy old tub any increase in sailing performance.

The way we use our boat and how we do the sailing bit has been adequate and trouble free for six seasons.

If you saw the rig and its limitations you would no doubt adopt the same policy.

Mainsheet mounted on the pilot house roof, no traveller, tiny jib with a Hoyt self tacking boom, dirty but good condition sails. All sheeting/outhauls from the rear cockpit. Halyards at the mast.

Before you jump to another delusion, we have TWO cockpits, the rear immediatly behind the pilot house and a much larger one behind the mast nicknamed 'the jaccuzi' - because that is what it looks like. An option for our boat is the Lewmar 'Stowinch' system which allows all sail control to be powered. We dont have that. It costs 20K plus installed! Not for us, too rich by far.

Despite the boats limitations as a pure sailing boat, our passage speed has increased by 1.5 kts compared to our previous aft cockpit cruising yacht. For a couple of mature - mid 70's - sailors, it is proving ideal. We are unashamed travellers by water, not purist sailors.

FYI, the luff ropes are a very tight fit in the foils. Slacking the halyards will not drop the sails, they both have to be physically pulled down. And winched up. No chance of working them up without winching - for us, anyway. So, once my sails are fitted, tensioned to MY liking, checked after a couple of uses, that is it until we take them down for the winter.

It works for me, which is what is important.

Almost 8,000 NM's without a sail problem. Why would I change a regime that works?

Motor Sailers Rule OK..........................

PTFE spray lubricant on the luff rope might help.

 

[Daydream believer]

A half turn, like about 1.25 inches around the circumference of the foil!

I do not know of any sail makers who design their sails to be permanently sailed like that ( unless reefed a couple of turns for bad weather of course)
But to each his own.

 

[Daydream believer]

How on earth did he come to that conclusion?

It is a fact of life that as the unit wears the bearings tend to work better if the halyard is eased to take some load off of the bearings. It is a sign of wear. When my Facnor gear was new I could crank the halyard tight & furl the jib away quite easily. Not so now though. The surveyor has made a simple deduction really

 

[dunedin]

Vic, re easing halyard tension ….

But even if it does I have to wonder for how long will someone go forward and tension it when unfurl then again when he want to furl and what about the times he get caught out .

…. I guess many, perhaps most, people now have halyards lead back to the cockpit, so no need to go on deck.
If a boat has halyard fixed at the mast, if wanting to improve sail shape, a jib Cunningham down haul might be easier to lead back

 

[sailaboutvic]

A genoa with the halyard lightly tensioned will have its draught aft which is perfect for light airs, but when the wind increases tightening the halyard will bring the draft forward, lessening the tendency for the boat to be heeled excessively, and allowing the wind power to be converted into forward motion, rather than moving sideways. It doesn't have to be a race tactic, it's about efficiency, VMG. i.e. getting into port before the pub or chippie closes

I think most know what happen when you tension a halyard .
One of the main advantages of a furling system is you don't need to go forward .
And there other ways to stop excessive heeling .
As for going g faster the extra .x of a kts make no difference to me one way or another as we never heading for a pub