Red over green

[prv]

It's madness you will then be sailing with red and green lights at the top of the mast and the bow and stern lights on to get a white stern light. So you are neither sailing or motoring there by confusing ships and other yachts.

OK, one might be excused not knowing about "red over green is a sailing machine" since they're rarely used on yachts - but for someone with so many miles under his belt you are astoundingly ignorant about even the basic lights. I know that sounds harsh but I'm genuinely amazed.

Deck level navigation lights (red, green, and white) do not indicate a motor vessel. They're the basic set of lights which nearly everything has to carry. For a vessel under sail they are all that is required.

Red-over-green higher up can be added if desired (but is usually only found on large sailing ships which otherwise might be assumed to be power vessels due to their size).

Alternatively, on smaller vessels the whole lot can optionally be swapped for a single tricolour, as a power-saving measure.

All the above apply to vessels under sail.

The light indicating a vessel under power is the "masthead light" - a white light covering an arc forwards. Despite the name there's no need for it to be at the masthead, merely higher than the sidelights. Yotties tend to refer to it as a "steaming light". Vessels over 50m need two; the forward one is lower, which is how you know which way a distant ship is travelling when you can't see the sidelights (you cross oceans and don't know this stuff?)

Do you show a masthead light when motoring, or just switch to standard sidelights and stern lights so people think you're sailing?

Pete

 

[VO5]

How many ships are blundering around the Channel at night without radar?

Pete

And how many ships are also blundering about everywhere on autopilot and not keeping a proper lookout as well?

 

[cliff]

How many ships are blundering around the Channel at night without radar?

Pete

How many leisure craft are blundering around anywhere at night under sail?

 

[prv]

And how many ships are also blundering about everywhere on autopilot and not keeping a proper lookout as well?

Probably some, but there's not much I can do about them except avoid.

There is a halfway house, though, which is one man on the bridge, on watch but not really paying a great deal of attention. I may be doing the merchant mariners of the world a disservice, but I suspect that's far from unheard of. My premise is that this guy is more likely to be slumped in a chair in front of the radar screen than staring at the horizon in exactly the direction where my little lights happen to be. If he has a modern-ish radar then it may even call his attention to my presence.

When I sailed on Stavros, us amateurs did the steering and visual lookout from the open bridge, while the professional OOW did the navigation etc in an adjacent space that was known as the Chartroom but was actually just like the bridge on a smallish coaster - this was where the ship was really controlled from. It was very noticeable that the OOW's default position when not doing something else was always sitting in front of the radar. When we reported visual sightings, they humoured us, but they clearly weren't all that interested because they'd always been tracking the target for ages by radar. Quite often they wouldn't even look out of the window to see whatever it was. Some of these folk were "home grown" up through the Tall Ships world, but others (especially when I first started) were moving across from bulkers, container ships, etc and still did tours in both worlds. Watching them at work on their "real" bridge (next door to our "toy" bridge) gave me the strong impression that on merchant ships, radar is king. If I want to be seen by them, that's the technology to concentrate on.

Pete

 

[prv]

How many leisure craft are blundering around anywhere at night under sail?

Well, me at least, though I hope I'm not blundering

Afraid I'm not sure what you're getting at, though?

Pete

 

[Ariadne]

I worked on one coaster that turned the radars off a soon as the pilot buggered off, and they didn't go back on until the nest pilot got on!

The Ch Mate and OOWs, just looked the AIS and cleaned the bridge, very rarely taking an active watch, like looking out of the windows and such like. So, as far as they were concerned if you didn't show on the AIS you didn't exist!

But then it a Japanese ship with a very depressed Filipino crew, who just wanted to go home.

 

[Uricanejack]

>Errm. Oh dear. That is wrong in so many ways!

OK Rule 25(c)
Sailing boats - Optional mast top lights: Not required by law, but to make your sailing boat more visible, you can use the optional Red over Green mast top lights in addition to the required: •Red and Green side lights;•White Stern light

It's madness you will then be sailing with red and green lights at the top of the mast and the bow and stern lights on to get a white stern light. So you are neither sailing or motoring there by confusing ships and other yachts. I wouldn't touch it with a bargepole.

While you might be confused, one would hope a profesionaly certified mariner would not be. which is I think the point. to be seen by the big boats

 

[Uricanejack]

How many leisure craft are blundering around anywhere at night under sail?

I do occasionaly.

 

[Uricanejack]

Probably some, but there's not much I can do about them except avoid.

There is a halfway house, though, which is one man on the bridge, on watch but not really paying a great deal of attention. I may be doing the merchant mariners of the world a disservice, but I suspect that's far from unheard of. My premise is that this guy is more likely to be slumped in a chair in front of the radar screen than staring at the horizon in exactly the direction where my little lights happen to be. If he has a modern-ish radar then it may even call his attention to my presence.

When I sailed on Stavros, us amateurs did the steering and visual lookout from the open bridge, while the professional OOW did the navigation etc in an adjacent space that was known as the Chartroom but was actually just like the bridge on a smallish coaster - this was where the ship was really controlled from. It was very noticeable that the OOW's default position when not doing something else was always sitting in front of the radar. When we reported visual sightings, they humoured us, but they clearly weren't all that interested because they'd always been tracking the target for ages by radar. Quite often they wouldn't even look out of the window to see whatever it was. Some of these folk were "home grown" up through the Tall Ships world, but others (especially when I first started) were moving across from bulkers, container ships, etc and still did tours in both worlds. Watching them at work on their "real" bridge (next door to our "toy" bridge) gave me the strong impression that on merchant ships, radar is king. If I want to be seen by them, that's the technology to concentrate on.

Pete

Unfortunatly there may be a certain amount of truth in your observation. Depending up on where they were trained and on what type of ship.

 

[knuterikt]

>Bow lights can be shielded by the genoa (specially when heeled), and the tricolour is dancing about all over the place. Has anyone ever succeeded in fitting all round red over green?

If you are sailing you should be using the masthead Tricolor not the lower bow and stern lights, they indicate you are motoring. Also an all round red over green is not only against COLREGS it would be total confusing plus COLREGS require a white light pointing aft, hence why all sailing yachts have a Tricolor at the top of the mast.

Can you tell my what the difference between the three "under sail" boats would be apart from the height above water?
All are legal according to the collregs (from http://www.globalspec.com/productfinder/optics_optical_components/light_sources)

found these here http://www.boatlamps.co.uk/contents/en-uk/d88.html
Rule 25(a)

Rule 25(b)

Rule 25(c)

No doubt that 25(c) will give the best odds for other vessels spotting the boat both at short & long distance

 

[knuterikt]

It has always seemed to me that there is an inherent problem being seen at night due to obscuration of navigation lights.
Bow lights can be shielded by the genoa (specially when heeled), and the tricolour is dancing about all over the place.

Has anyone ever succeeded in fitting all round red over green?

The problem seems to be the minimum 1 metre separation and shielding by both sails.

They could be fitted on a staff and loaded with high intensity leds.

Thoughts?

I have been looking at fitting the same configuration.
The most practical seems to be a 360 red at the masthead and two 180 green one meter below the masthead.
I have had the same concerns as others about the visibility of the two 180 green ones.

Lopolight seems to be the only ones manufacturing this type of lights.
I had a "interesting" discussion with the Norwegian distributor . he could not understand why I wanted this....
So i sent a mail to Lopolight with some questions and got a prompt reply - don't have that mail anymore, but the answer was (from memory)

a) The problem with sails covering the green was almost non existent
b) They had sold this kind of light to boats in the UK

They might be able to provide us with more info & pictures?

 

[Graham_Wright]

After all the feedback (including the scary ignorance confessions) I think that an all round red at the masthead with doubled up greens (at least) one metre below is the way for me to go. Sails covering the lower lights may or not be an issue but, if the top red is high intensity, that should ensure a better chance of being spotted. Even if the lower greens are obscured (probably worst case only the leeward one) their presence makes the display legal. A fishing vessel is "required' to carry red over white which might cause ambiguity but it is visibility not identity that is the aim for me.

If screen staring is what does for keeping a look-out, then maybe an AIS transceiver is the best choice for the single-hander based on cost and power drain.

 

[KellysEye]

>Do you show a masthead light when motoring, or just switch to standard sidelights and stern lights so people think you're sailing?


When sailing at night I use a Tricolor and when motoring red and green bow lights, stern white light and steaming light.

>Red-over-green higher up can be added if desired (but is usually only found on large sailing ships which otherwise might be assumed to be power vessels due to their size

Yes I have seen that but never on a yacht up to 60 feet.

 

[Ian_Edwards]

Post #30?

The pictures in post #30 are, I think, a bit misleading, the under power, under 12m is OK, except that the 2 left hand pictures are legal up to 20m.
So if your boat is over 12m you can't use an all round white light at the mast head, but assuming your boat is under 20m you can use a tricolour at the mast head whilst sailing.

 

[VicS]

The pictures in post #30 are, I think, a bit misleading, the under power, under 12m is OK, except that the 2 left hand pictures are legal up to 20m.
So if your boat is over 12m you can't use an all round white light at the mast head, but assuming your boat is under 20m you can use a tricolour at the mast head whilst sailing.

I dont think they are misleading. They are surely what the title suggests. They are all combinations of the common lights which are legal for vessels under 12m.
There maybe another diagram, or diagrams, for larger vessels which has not been posted.

In fact I was going to say what a useful diagram that first one is.

 

[OceanSprint]

OOps - then I think my newly aquired Jag 24 is set up incorrectly.

It has deck level green/red and a stern white.

It has mast head all round white and all round tricolour.

So for sailing at night I thought the tricolour would be used.
And at night, the deck level lights, plus the all round white.

But that means from astern I would be showing two white lights one above each other - which is not in any of the diagrams of post #30.

At the moment the deck level lights are all on one circuit. Should I split these so I can turn off the stern white when steaming atr night ?

 

[Adrian Jones]

It has always seemed to me that there is an inherent problem being seen at night due to obscuration of navigation lights.
Bow lights can be shielded by the genoa (specially when heeled), and the tricolour is dancing about all over the place.

Has anyone ever succeeded in fitting all round red over green?

The problem seems to be the minimum 1 metre separation and shielding by both sails.

They could be fitted on a staff and loaded with high intensity leds.

Thoughts?

I totally agree. A ferry skipper friend of mine said that red over green was immediately obvious to crew that it was a sailing vessel. In fact if you think about it it, is the only light arrangement using coloured lights that is unique to a sailing boat.

There is a challenge however as there needs to be a 1 metre vertical gap between lights. This arrangement then needs to be effectively secured on the mast top or from a bracket fixed to it.

If anyone knows anyone who could produce an economic aluminium bracket and pole I would love to hear from them. I'm sure it would be a good seller!

Regards

 

[Adrian Jones]

It has always seemed to me that there is an inherent problem being seen at night due to obscuration of navigation lights.
Bow lights can be shielded by the genoa (specially when heeled), and the tricolour is dancing about all over the place.

Has anyone ever succeeded in fitting all round red over green?

The problem seems to be the minimum 1 metre separation and shielding by both sails.

They could be fitted on a staff and loaded with high intensity leds.

Thoughts?

I totally agree.

A ferry skipper friend of mine said that red over green was immediately obvious to his crew that it was a sailing vessel. In fact if you think about it it, is the only light arrangement using coloured lights that is unique to a sailing boat.

The challenge, however, as you mention is the need for a 1 metre vertical gap between lights. This arrangement then has to be effectively secured on the mast top or from a bracket fixed to it. The lower light not being obscured by the mounting pole!

AquaSignal produce a 'not under command' version, red over red light that has a expandable cable on it. It looks to be suitable for hoisting aloft and not for mounting on a mast top. It is also very expensive around £350.00!

If anyone knows anyone who could produce me an economic aluminium bracket and pole arrangement, I would love to hear from them.

Regards

 

[AngusMcDoon]

At the moment the deck level lights are all on one circuit. Should I split these so I can turn off the stern white when steaming atr night ?

Yes, or fit a steaming light.

 

[Graham_Wright]

I totally agree.

A ferry skipper friend of mine said that red over green was immediately obvious to his crew that it was a sailing vessel. In fact if you think about it it, is the only light arrangement using coloured lights that is unique to a sailing boat.

The challenge, however, as you mention is the need for a 1 metre vertical gap between lights. This arrangement then has to be effectively secured on the mast top or from a bracket fixed to it. The lower light not being obscured by the mounting pole!

AquaSignal produce a 'not under command' version, red over red light that has a expandable cable on it. It looks to be suitable for hoisting aloft and not for mounting on a mast top. It is also very expensive around £350.00!

If anyone knows anyone who could produce me an economic aluminium bracket and pole arrangement, I would love to hear from them.

Regards

I am dreaming (fantasising) about a DIY version. Ultrabright LEDs come in all sorts of configurations some (claiming to be) waterproof.
A string (they come up to 15m long!) of reds in a multiturn coil would sit on the masthead or tricolour or all round white. Two patches of green could then be affixed onto the mast on each side one metre below. Some surface mount LEDs are available in blocks and they may be more suitable than strings.

However,the fantasy will probably remain just that!