Red diesel. What's left out?

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samwise

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Red diesel. What\'s left out?

Does anyone know the difference(if any) between the components of red marine diesel we currently put in our boats and the white stuff we put in our diesel cars? I have it in my mind that the red stuff is minus many of the additives and contains a higher sulphur content. Does this mean that the expensive white stuff ( I've seen it blue and green in France, Spain and Portugal) is better for our engines? Vehicle diesel fuel quality used to vary widely across Europe, is there a Europe wide standard now -- at least for pleasure boats using Diesel A?
 
Re: Red diesel. What\'s left out?

A higher sulphur content would make the engine run smoother,I know this because in sweden they have eliminated sulphur and added 20% rape oil ,You then have to go to your local car parts dealer and buy bottles of Diesel additive so that the engine will tick over properly.; Amazing thing is that rape oil seems to have the same tax as diesel . So everything just gets more expensive and it is now almost impossible to find Diesel additive in Sweden.(sorry bit of a rant there)
 
Re: Red diesel. What\'s left out?

Sorry for butting in, but I havent really read anything on this diesel issue, am I right in assuming that there is changes in the law regarding using red diesel in pleasure craft, and when does it kick in and does it mean we have to use white, (derv) from now on at the pump prices? sorry for been in the dark over this, can someone fill me in,(pardon the pun)
Cheers, Eamonn.
 
Re: Red diesel. What\'s left out?

it kicked in at beginning of this month, but the government now have to decide how to handle it, which will take months, so in the meantime you simply carry on using red
 
Re: Red diesel. What\'s left out?

There is an issue with older fuel pumps and low sulphur diesel. It seems the sulphur acts as some kind of lubricant. I advise seeking advice from your engine manufacturer. I have a 6 cly Lister with a minimec pump. I think I may need an additive to run long term on white.
 
Re: Red diesel. What\'s left out?

It will depend largely on the supplier. In most of the places I used to work (SE England), automotive diesel, marine diesel and industrial gas oil were all the same product except that at the loading gantry, gas oil would be dyed as would marine diesel and the automotive diesel (retail site stuff) would be dosed with performance additive to make it "special". The base material would have been the same stuff though so no difference in sulphur. Different oil companies have their own additives and each of course claim that their's is best.
Morgan
 
Re: Red diesel. What\'s left out?

some suppliers deliver us low sulphur diesel fuel which is dyed red. Some sell gas oil which has a lower cetane value than diesel fuel. They are different products manufactured to different ISO / BS standards. Low sulphur fuels have to have other additives to provide essential lubrication.
 
Re: Red diesel. What\'s left out?

We used to have (and perhaps still have) a resident expert on these forums who gave a very comprehensive explanation of this some time back. If I remember correctly he said

- red is a different level of distilate, nearer to gas oil than white is. As a result it is dirtier inside and outside the engine but doesn't suffer from lack of sulphur (white ULSD has the sulphur taken out). No problems with pump lubrication for the boat then.

- the fuel intended for marine, agricultural and other low-duty purposes not only has a red dye added but also a chemical marker which can be detected long after the dye has disappeared. You have been warned!

Apologies if I have misquoted him but I'm sure that is the gist of what he said. Nigel - where are you?
 
Re: Red diesel. What\'s left out?

Do we assume, therefore, that there are different standards for fuel quality. Forecourt pumps have to carry the relevant ISO ratings etc. In my experience, many marine diesel pumps are on the classic side and don't have any fancy displays. As long as the price is right I guess people won't worry too much about what they are actually getting, but if we have to pay top dollar for fuel I think we have a right to expect better info at the pump.
 
Re: Red diesel. What\'s left out?

I found a link here that might help explain things. Mine is an inline pump /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
Re: Red diesel. What\'s left out?

Sam, dead right ... many pumps dont say what you are getting & gas oil isn't DERV. For top dollar prices we should get quality and clean DERV not gasoil.
This may not be the gas if no supply changes are made and commercials are required to claim tax back. Suppliers will just keep on dishing out what we have been getting, gas oil, dirt, water and god knows what (which is why we have such complex filtering arrangements - my car doesnt have all that kit)
I already go out of my way to buy quality diesel which, in my engines, produces no smoke at all, which is not the case if I am caught out and have to use Gas Oil.
 
I\'m still here ......

Standard Red Diesel is 0.2% Sulphur base stock. It has a red dye and yellow marker added to aid C&E to sample and identify.
0.2% Sulphur diesel is good in that yes it does lubricate pumps and various parts it contacts ... the Heineken of Diesel Engines !

White or ULS Diesel ..... (Ultra Low Sulphur) is currently rated at less than 50ppm sulphur ... and soon to reduce further to less than 35ppm. Now before yer all get knickers in a twist ... many ULSD litres sold across forecourts are already near enough 35ppm. To pass EN590 specification - ULSD normally has various additives mixed in during transportation .... Lubricity additive to make up for loss of lubrication quality, and in winter months CFPP additive to prevent filters being blocked etc. Sometimes Cetane improvers and Anti-Static additives are added to enhance.

People worry too much about the change from Red to ULSD ... unless you have a real old ancient beast of an engine ... ignore and enjoy the thought that you are now one of the Green guys burning cleaner fuel.

If you really are worried ... there are various snake oils available in Car Acc. shops - but a cheap alternative that will make Greenpeace cringe - is to throw a spoonful of 20-50 in !!

Boat engines are generally not high revving super sensitive to this matter.

Oh - and Gas Oil is the Generic name for all Diesel fuel of this range.
 
Re: I\'m still here ......

Sam, incidentally Eberspacher heater runs better on DERV (the BS EN 590 stuff) than it does on gas oil (B2869).
Also EN590 has a higher cetane number (quicker burn)
 
I like the way names are glibly thrown around ....

DERV .... Gasoil ..... etc.

All Diesel / Gasoil is subject to EN coding ... same as Petrol etc. Ecah grade has its listing even Marine / Agricultural.

EN590 is the Road spec listing and will be displayed on the pump at your local Forecourt. It may have a BS # as well ...

Unfortunately I can't scan and reproduce the specs / data as per EN direct as they are Copyright ... but they are strict and I have serious biz helping co's comply with them by additives and quality control.
Everything from Sulphur, Ash, Sediments, Water, Distillation curves are specific and closely monitored ... a typical single sample lab analysis of Gasoil for UK use will run up a $1000 fee easily ..

Yes it is true that various other products are added to gasoils to bulk out and also improve various aspects ... but compared to Gasoline ... its small stuff.

Where does the difference of 0.2 and 50ppm stuff come ... basic Gasoil of high Sulphur content is "washed" to reduce Sulphur .....

Let me give one thought ... I have an old Perkins 4-107 in my boat ... always had Red supplied to it. It is now sitting in Latvia outside my house ready to be launched once winter ends .... I will have to use EN590 ULSD ... as 0.2% is restricted to Heating Fuel only and you need licence to buy ... I have no worries or concerns about using ULSD at all. In fact I welcome it ...
 
Re: This whole thread

Back last summer - wasn't it dry - Son of Nauticalia, who sell the cheapest fuel on the Thames took great trouble in sending its customers a single page flyer saying "we only sell ULSD" in our MGO.

This rather confirmed to me that as most fuel sold in the South East comes via pipelines direct from the refineries to various terminals, that all diesel fuel whether DERV or MGO is now ULSD for the simple reason that what distribution points are left (after Buncfield's Bang) just don't have the tankage for two types of diesel stock, and it's not Worth manufacturing two grades. I suspect that if standard Gas Oil is supplied to large users it will be in bulk direct.

Anyone with knowledge of the distribution side of fuels like to disagree?
 
Re: I\'m still here ......

Nige
You're a gem - font of all knowledge on fuels.

For my part I'd be happy to run my boat engine on red or white likewise the car - but HMC&E might take a different view /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Peter.
 
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