Red Diesel saga

libertyman said:
I believe the French have stated that they will not fine you if you have a receipt for purchase of white diesel in France that is less than 12 months old. I always fill up as soon as I arrive there so can tick the box. Perhaps this would be a pragmatic way forward?
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I believe the Belgian stated the same after the boycott (see http://www.yachtingmonthly.com/news/plea-to-end-yacht-boycott-of-belgium-806 ) but still there were some incidents afterwards. Some official statement would be nice.

This is newer:

http://www.ybw.com/news-from-yachti...-lobby-belgian-government-on-red-diesel-11329

The use of marked “red” diesel in private yachts is currently unlawful, regardless of the country in which the diesel was purchased from, with infringements carrying the risk of a fine.

In January 2014, in response to falling numbers of visiting British yachts, the then Belgian Minister for Finance Koen Geens acknowledged that the Belgian Government “must adopt a pragmatic approach” to the issue of “red” diesel.

Permission for British leisure craft to have red diesel in their fuel tanks when visiting Belgian waters was therefore granted up until 31 October 2014, subject to the proviso that the skipper can “present documents to demonstrate that excise duties have already been paid in the United Kingdom”.

This permission was subsequently extended until 31 December 2014, but was not renewed thereafter.

In a statement, the RYA said: “The Belgian Government’s decision not to extend this permission into 2015 has caused renewed consternation amongst British skippers.

“Although we understand that the risk of being fined by Belgian Customs may remain low, the uncertainty caused by the Belgian Government’s decision not to extend this permission into 2015 is likely to prompt many of those British skippers who had intended to visit Belgium this summer to go elsewhere.
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Not sure if this is gossip but I'm willing to believe the RYA.
 
muyuu said:
I believe the Belgian stated the same after the boycott (see http://www.yachtingmonthly.com/news/plea-to-end-yacht-boycott-of-belgium-806 ) but still there were some incidents afterwards. Some official statement would be nice.

This is newer:

http://www.ybw.com/news-from-yachti...-lobby-belgian-government-on-red-diesel-11329



Not sure if this is gossip but I'm willing to believe the RYA.
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R U a member.
The RYA can only ever, state "The Official" line according to the "law".
a member here has published a letter from the Belgian Government if you care to find it
 
sailorman said:
This is no joking matter muyuu is "worried of ybw" with no hard evidence to wave a stick at
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No more evidence than the law, the "law" in quotes as you say. And the accounts of several people who I assume don't lie. I'd also like to visit Belgium which I'm swerving for some time, and be clearer of the situation in the rest of the EU (I sail to Spain and France with relative frequency). The "law" matters much more than one's personal experience at getting fined, which is not proof of much at all.
 
muyuu said:
No more evidence than the law, the "law" in quotes as you say. And the accounts of several people who I assume don't lie. I'd also like to visit Belgium which I'm swerving for some time, and be clearer of the situation in the rest of the EU (I sail to Spain and France with relative frequency). The "law" matters much more than one's personal experience at getting fined, which is not proof of much at all.
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Do you get caught every time you exceed the speed limit on the roads
 
muyuu said:
That is why I said "seem to be" not "are".

The anecdotal evidence that you haven't been fined in your last visit proves naught. The law is that red diesel gets fined. Now, we can discuss how much is that enforced. There are several accounts in this forum and elsewhere, so I assume they are not all making it up or lying. Are you basically suggesting that we should take the chance and knowingly break the regulations in Belgium and elsewhere? Personally, I'm going to start carrying jerry cans of white diesel to my boat so next time I'm in the continent I'm below the dye level limits, even in France where I've taken my chances before.
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You clearly have not got a clue what you are talking about. First, taking red diesel in cans is not advised - and never has been. The current situation is well known and reported on. While the UK government is in dispute with the European Commission about our policy on marked diesel, all other EU members states will accept UK based boats with red diesel in their tanks if they can show it was bought in the UK (and also their own boats which have visited the UK). All cans must contain white only. Adding white to your tank will not make the red go away in the short run and there are tests which can detect the die in very small quantities.

It is true that some states (Holland, Germany and Belgium) have in the past levied fines, and Belgium in particular has made a big issue of it in the last 3 years, but each time the threat has been suspended. Currently there seem to be no reliable reports of any fines, and the Belgium government has recently confirmed that it will not take action until the current court case is finished and the outcome known. No other EU states has ever bothered to penalise UK boats for having red in the tank.

If you read back over this thread, all of this has been covered. It is well reported in both the press and by regular updates from the RYA.

So, unless you have, as sailorman says real hard evidence that the situation has changed suggests you stop spreading unfounded rumours.

You might also find it useful to do some background reading on the subject so that you fully understand how we got into this situation and the reasons why the UK government has followed the same policy consistently for so many years. Does not mean that you have to agree with the policy, but we have to live with it because as individuals we cannot do anything about it. So if you want to take your boat to other EU states, make sure you familiarise yourself with the current situation - which in reality has barely changed, apart from the odd events, for many years.
 
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OR4751 said:
Premier sells that little diesel? :confused:
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Comparing to a chain of hundred or so petrol stations with 12 pumps going flat out for a fair part of the day I'd say it's insignificant unfortunately, yes. The prices for farm red diesel at least seem to track white diesel exactly http://dairy.ahdb.org.uk/market-inf...el-tracker/monthly-fuel-tracker/#.VX9Z5zC6dD8

According to the Guvverment figgers diesel cars,vans and lorries used used about 20 Million Tons of diesel in 2012. https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...road_transport_consumption_factsheet_2012.pdf I don't know what the red diesel sales to the marine sector were in 2012 but it must have been tiny in comparison to that - and then you'd have to split the commercial and leisure sales to make the volume even smaller. The justification the RYA/BMF/IWA and the Government used when arguing with the EU was perfectly true.
 
Tranona said:
You clearly have not got a clue what you are talking about. First, taking red diesel in cans is not advised - and never has been. The current situation is well known and reported on. While the UK government is in dispute with the European Commission about our policy on marked diesel, all other EU members states will accept UK based boats with red diesel in their tanks if they can show it was bought in the UK (and also their own boats which have visited the UK). All cans must contain white only. Adding white to your tank will not make the red go away in the short run and there are tests which can detect the die in very small quantities.

It is true that some states (Holland, Germany and Belgium) have in the past levied fines, and Belgium in particular has made a big issue of it in the last 3 years, but each time the threat has been suspended. Currently there seem to be no reliable reports of any fines, and the Belgium government has recently confirmed that it will not take action until the current court case is finished and the outcome known. No other EU states has ever bothered to penalise UK boats for having red in the tank.

If you read back over this thread, all of this has been covered. It is well reported in both the press and by regular updates from the RYA.

So, unless you have, as sailorman says real hard evidence that the situation has changed suggests you stop spreading unfounded rumours.

You might also find it useful to do some background reading on the subject so that you fully understand how we got into this situation and the reasons why the UK government has followed the same policy consistently for so many years. Does not mean that you have to agree with the policy, but we have to live with it because as individuals we cannot do anything about it. So if you want to take your boat to other EU states, make sure you familiarise yourself with the current situation - which in reality has barely changed, apart from the odd events, for many years.
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I meant cans with white diesel. Sorry for the confusion.

EDIT: I just rechecked my comment and I explicitly said "cans of white diesel", not sure why you thought I meant to say "cans of red diesel" - and it's not a recommendation, it's what I plan to do since I actually pay about the same price if not a bit less for white diesel.
 
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sailorman said:
Do you get caught every time you exceed the speed limit on the roads
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No, because I don't speed! that's the whole point. And I don't go speeding just to test if the coppers/cameras will actually enforce it, I'd rather save myself the experience. Do you think this is unreasonable? The argument "I speed often but so far I didn't get a ticket" is more or less equivalent to what you are saying, except maybe it's very unlikely to get fined for red diesel in Belgium right now. I understand that this makes a difference and I value the data point you provide from experience. Still, I'd much rather not have this to worry about.
 
muyuu said:
No, because I don't speed! that's the whole point. And I don't go speeding just to test if the coppers/cameras will actually enforce it, I'd rather save myself the experience. Do you think this is unreasonable? The argument "I speed often but so far I didn't get a ticket" is more or less equivalent to what you are saying, except maybe it's very unlikely to get fined for red diesel in Belgium right now. I understand that this makes a difference and I value the data point you provide from experience. Still, I'd much rather not have this to worry about.
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Change to "unmarked" fuel or sit under a tree @ home.
 
muyuu said:
I meant cans with white diesel. Sorry for the confusion.

EDIT: I just rechecked my comment and I explicitly said "cans of white diesel", not sure why you thought I meant to say "cans of red diesel" - and it's not a recommendation, it's what I plan to do since I actually pay about the same price if not a bit less for white diesel.
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The point i was making that there is nothing unusual about carry white diesel in cans. However that will not help your main tank unless you have only used white in it (as I have in my boat), or you have had it drained and cleaned to remove all traces of red dye before refilling with white.

Since posting #211 I have received the latest PBO which has an update on the Red diesel issue which says (unsurprisingly) much the same thing. The uncertainty about Belgium still exists with no "official" instruction to customs, but all other EU states seem to be accepting receipts, or in most cases not bothered at all about UK boats having red in their tanks.

Of course individuals can make their own choices about whether they can or cannot live with the uncertainty about visiting Belgium, but to suggest there is risk elsewhere in the EU is without foundation. It is also pointless to speculate what might or might not happen when the result of the European Court case is known, nor what might happen if the referendum results in a decision to exit the EU.

Travelling to and from the EU in a private pleasure boat is currently trouble free provided you have the correct documents with you, so just enjoy it.
 
Tranona said:
The point i was making that there is nothing unusual about carry white diesel in cans. However that will not help your main tank unless you have only used white in it (as I have in my boat), or you have had it drained and cleaned to remove all traces of red dye before refilling with white.

Since posting #211 I have received the latest PBO which has an update on the Red diesel issue which says (unsurprisingly) much the same thing. The uncertainty about Belgium still exists with no "official" instruction to customs, but all other EU states seem to be accepting receipts, or in most cases not bothered at all about UK boats having red in their tanks.

Of course individuals can make their own choices about whether they can or cannot live with the uncertainty about visiting Belgium, but to suggest there is risk elsewhere in the EU is without foundation. It is also pointless to speculate what might or might not happen when the result of the European Court case is known, nor what might happen if the referendum results in a decision to exit the EU.

Travelling to and from the EU in a private pleasure boat is currently trouble free provided you have the correct documents with you, so just enjoy it.
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All that is accurate, but Belgium explicitly released a note saying the levels of red marker that they'll fine, which is not "traceable levels" but about the levels you'd get for filling the tank with white diesel from near empty once or twice. So that's probably feasible for many sailors to do on top of carrying receipts. In the case of Belgium I think I will wait until the situation clarifies, but that's just my personal choice not a recommendation. I think the issue was covered enough so each one can make their own judgment with the information available.
 
muyuu said:
All that is accurate, but Belgium explicitly released a note saying the levels of red marker that they'll fine, which is not "traceable levels" but about the levels you'd get for filling the tank with white diesel from near empty once or twice. So that's probably feasible for many sailors to do on top of carrying receipts. In the case of Belgium I think I will wait until the situation clarifies, but that's just my personal choice not a recommendation. I think the issue was covered enough so each one can make their own judgment with the information available.
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All the more good reason for not visiting that little jumped up country! Trying to tell us what to do! The cheek of it! I
They are like some of the ones who jump up and down on here about what peeps can and cant do! Need to mind their own business!
S
 
skipper_stu said:
All the more good reason for not visiting that little jumped up country! Trying to tell us what to do! The cheek of it! I
They are like some of the ones who jump up and down on here about what peeps can and cant do! Need to mind their own business!
S
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Roll on Friday i say
cheers

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