Red Diesel saga

[brianhumber]

Further to this thread I've been in touch with some contacts in Ostend.
. The RNSYC HM says that he hasn't seen Customs (Douane) around this year. Maritime police do make the occasional rounds checking random boats. There are some UK registered boats in Ostend at the moment and those that were boarded by the maritime police were asked to produce passports, ship registration papers, radio licenses and - surprisingly - Schengen crew list.
- An RNSYC committee member who's something big in the local Chamber of Commerce says that the situation this year is the same as last year. Officially red diesel is a no-no. Unofficially a blind eye is being turned till the final EU ruling - expected spring 2016.
- Spoke to the Douane POC at the MIK in Zeebrugge and he pretty much confirmed the above. UK registered yachts (and others) are not actively being targeted in search for red diesel aboard - there is no witch hunt. However, should you fall foul of the law and you do have red diesel in your tanks that could well be added to the list of charges.

Some advise based on personal experience - take it or leave it:
- Maritime police and Douane are just doing their job. Don't get stroppy with them. Nelson was English, you are English, but that does not make you Nelson. And the red or blue bit of cloth flying from your stern does not make your craft sovereign British territory. If you attract the attention of officialdom and you let your attitude run away with you, you may well end up getting the book thrown at you.
- Never volunteer information. It makes you look shifty and with something to hide.
- Dealing with officials anywhere there a lot to be said for appearing less intelligent/more stupid than you really are.
- We have been boarded in Holland, Belgium, France and by the UKBA. Civility goes a long way - except with the UKBA storm troopers. The French gendarmes even turned a blind eye to our out of date flares. It's hard to throw the book at someone who's pouring you a cup of coffee.

Spot on and entirely my experience as well. I find it sad but prototypical that the UKBA is the the only enforcement agency that feels they have to act like the KGB ( infact having had dealings with the KGB they were a lot better than the UKBA come to think about it). Still in my exprience UKBA only appear in fine calm weather, 'ealf and safety seems to stop them bordering in anything above a ripple on the water.

Brian

 

[prv]

Spot on and entirely my experience as well. I find it sad but prototypical that the UKBA is the the only enforcement agency that feels they have to act like the KGB

For what it's worth, the one time we were boarded they were perfectly civil and friendly. Somewhat pointless, mind you, as we were merely returning from Itchenor to Lymington

Pete

 

[Koeketiene]

Why should every quayside supplier of marine diesel in the country have to change their business, so that a few yachties can go and visit Belgium? It's not just marinas, it would be every supplier in every port in the UK.

Whilst Belgium was the only country to enforce the EU rules so far, I expect other countries to follow suit should the final EU ruling go against Britain.
This would effectively put the continent out of bounds for UK yachtsmen and the UK out of bounds for continental yachtsmen.

As for every quayside supplier... how many supply to both commercial/fishing/working/etc... boats and yachts?

 

[prv]

As for every quayside supplier... how many supply to both commercial/fishing/working/etc... boats and yachts?

Well, my usual one certainly does.

Obviously as a Solent sailor I have other options, albeit less convenient as I'd have to make a special diversion for fuel. But surely in most smaller ports there is only one fuel supplier on the water? So unless that port is exclusively commercial or exclusively leisure, the supplier will serve both.

Pete

 

[NormanS]

Whilst Belgium was the only country to enforce the EU rules so far, I expect other countries to follow suit should the final EU ruling go against Britain.
This would effectively put the continent out of bounds for UK yachtsmen and the UK out of bounds for continental yachtsmen.

As for every quayside supplier... how many supply to both commercial/fishing/working/etc... boats and yachts?

Every one that I have ever had any dealings with.

 

[sailorman]

As has been stated before charge the full white rate & deal with the Pro users via income tax or VAT returns ( as business vehicles are covered already)

 

[sailorman]

The relevant comment being " at my age" thankyou

But then age might not be the problem ,as your link did not work for me
So we are back to " where?"

just type in the search box
red diesel in Belgium

 

[grumpy_o_g]

Leaving the EU will in no way positively affect this - Belgian law is Belgian law and if they decline to apply comity in this situation then red diesel will be outlawed whereever the boat hails from. In fact, it is our membership of the EU which has permitted the UK government to take the stand it has in our defence.

Boo2

As above the Belgian issue is that the British boats do not comply with an EU directive. If the UK is not in the EU then the Belgians would require Britain to confirm with the EU directive. A little simplistic but that's basically the situation. At worst a simple change in UK law would resolve the situation, ironically whether the UK was in the EU or not - it's just that while the UK is in the EU they will get contract penalties for not following the contract.

 

[Biggles Wader]

As has been stated before charge the full white rate & deal with the Pro users via income tax or VAT returns ( as business vehicles are covered already)

Furthermore why not abolish red diesel completely and just sell duty paid stuff.Anyone who can legitimately claim a rebate gets money back from HMRC.Including farmers.

 

[sailorman]

Furthermore why not abolish red diesel completely and just sell duty paid stuff.Anyone who can legitimately claim a rebate gets money back from HMRC.Including farmers.

That was the point i was trying to get over

 

[Pords]

This might put a spanner in my trip I planned for the middle of June. Not sure now whether its worth risking a fine. I went over to Nieupoort last season and must admit no problems what's so ever. Hope someone sees common sense on this issue otherwise this will have a profound impact on visiting yachtsman both sides of the channel.

 

[sailorman]

I expect to be there at a similar time as well also this w/e coming. I do not foresee any issues

 

[Tranona]

As for every quayside supplier... how many supply to both commercial/fishing/working/etc... boats and yachts?

Expect the vast majority, particularly in the less densely populated parts of the country where commercial users dominate and pleasure boat numbers would not justify a separate tank. Also there is a large number of inland waterways users, particularly liveaboards whose main use of diesel is heating and power generation rather than propulsion.

When this issue first came up the BMF, RYA and representatives of both fuel suppliers commercial users carried out extensive consultations and research the outcome of which underpins the governments stance. Nothing to do with taking a stand against the EU for the sake of it, but in the broad interests of all water borne users of diesel.

As with any issue with multiple interested parties there will always be some who feel badly treated.

 

[duncan99210]

Outside of the UK, where there are enough commercial boats to support it, it is usual to see two pumps: marked and unmarked diesel. Where there isn't enough commercial traffic, only a white diesel pump will be found. Conversely, where there isn't enough leisure traffic to support it, only a marked diesel pump will be found (rare). I suspect that if the EU decides the UK fudge is illegal, then we will see the emergence of a similar situation here. Those who cannot source their fuel via a quayside pump will have to resort to jerrycans.

 

[Javelin]

Here at Southwold they installed White and Red diesel pumps at the harbour last year.
The justification was based on the number of Dutch and Belgian visitors we get rather than on any perceived UK based demand.
The hope being that it would encourage more Mainland visitors to Southwold.
I guess time will tell if this works.

In reverse I went to Oostende last year and needed diesel for the return and so I went up the coast to Blankeburg.

 

[prv]

In reverse I went to Oostende last year and needed diesel for the return and so I went up the coast to Blankeburg.

?

What's wrong with filling up with Belgian diesel?

Pete

 

[Stork_III]

Thanks for that.

While unpleasant it is not the oft quoted figure per litre I have seen.

Worth a chance :encouragement:

Perry, the Netherlands charge by the liter, if no valid fuel invoices are produced. It was 4.3 euro/l of tank capacity in 2010.

 

[pks1702]

Perry, the Netherlands charge by the liter, if no valid fuel invoices are produced. It was 4.3 euro/l of tank capacity in 2010.

Thanks Peter that was clearly where I was getting confused.

A 3440 euro fine would slightly put a dampener on things if that were the case :ambivalence:

 

[Daydream believer]

?

What's wrong with filling up with Belgian diesel?

Pete

Because the red in your tank would stain the fuel & if you were checked again you might be deemed as having red. Hopefully the receipts from Blankenburge will be enough for customs.
My tank is full of red but I have 2 clean cans ready for cruising France & channel Islands this year & the first port I get to I will fill them with white. Hopefully by the time I get to Belgium I will have enough receipts to demonstrate to the Belgians that I am not intending to defraud. I will, however, have traces of red in the tank

 

[DJE]

I'm in the process of buying a boat at the moment and she has two completely seperate fuel tanks. Either can supply the engine but only one of them can supply the heating system. Seems attractive to clean one out and use it only for white (or French yellow) deisel and put red in the other. (Interestingly she has always been based on the east coast and made frequent voyages to Belgium and Holland. I will have to ask the vendor if this was his intention.) But I suppose there would always be some cross contamination by returned fuel every time you switched from one tank to the other.