Red diesel in Ostend

[Koeketiene]

Apart from the one slap bang in the middle and towards the top of the first picture

Upon closer examination you will see that that particular one is a courtesy ensign on a Dutch boat.

An unforgiveable flag etiquette faux pas

 

[Marmalade]

Not a dig at you but.......
People have been fined. Not many, but some have.
.

... your evidence?

I have searched and searched - I've found several articles also making that assertion.

Robert says otherwise

I've not found a single named person who says "I've been fined" or even an official report citing a specific case.

I've come to the conclusion that it's alll an over-reaction to a response from the Belgians asking them to clarify their official position (which is the same as everyone's official position).

 

[wingdiver]

Bottom line is I am not prepared to risk it full stop.
If you are happy to risk it then fine, it's each person's call.
I can't afford to get caught out whether it's the fixed €500 odd sum or the €x per litre.
It seems such a stupid thing as, in the UK, we have paid proper duty on our fuel.
I don't expect Robert would pay my fine if I was boarded and charged so his opinion is just that.
Some from over here cleaned out their red and put white in for their trip to Belgium this year. I can't do that either as I've too much capacity.

 

[Supine Being]

Well, we went and we survived. We arrived late and went straight to sleep. In the morning I got up to suss out the facilities in the RNSYC building leaving Mrs Supine and the Supinettes on board. Just as I got there I looked back and saw a guy in a white shirt climbing over the guard rail. Interesting, I thought.

I walked back and found two officers in my cockpit perusing our passports. The guys were very pleasant and had a checklist of items that they wanted to verify. They asked for the SSR document and insurance documentation. They wanted to know what VHF we had installed, whether we had local charts, in-date flares, in-date fire extinguishers, lifebuoy with a light, whether we had the name of our home port on the stern (no), whether we had a lead line (no? well you should), what type of engine we had, and... what sort of fuel it used.

A pregnant pause while we waited for the next question which was... Do you have big spoons? Huh? You know, big spoons, as he made a rowing motion. Yes, yes, we call them oars, and we quickly span away from the whole fuel question.

A couple of observations: firstly, I got the impression that some of the rigmarole was for training purposes as it was only one of the officers that did all the talking. Also, they weren't there to chase down Brits with red diesel, although if I had been an bolshy so and so then I'm sure it was an option for them. I don't believe they're out to hammer visiting Brits; business is business after all. I would return.

 

[sailorman]

Thank you

 

[nortada]

British Flagged Vessel Checked For Foreign Requirements?

The guys were very pleasant and had a checklist of items that they wanted to verify.

Interesting, whilst not wishing to enter the debate of the rights & wrongs, it appears that this is an example of a British flagged vessel being checked against, local national requirements?

 

[Koeketiene]

Interesting, whilst not wishing to enter the debate of the rights & wrongs, it appears that this is an example of a British flagged vessel being checked against, local national requirements?

Here we go again...

You're quite right, of course.
The navy should send a gunboat to teach those pesky natives a lesson.
Have a chat with TB and toad.

 

[Supine Being]

Interesting, whilst not wishing to enter the debate of the rights & wrongs, it appears that this is an example of a British flagged vessel being checked against, local national requirements?

I would tone down the British bit as, for all I know, any other foreign, or even Belgian, vessel would have received the same set of questions. They were, after all, printed on the form that he was holding. I freely admitted that I was in contravention of some of what I assume were local regs. If they had tried to take action then we would have had the conversation about whether local regs apply to foreign vessels but, as they didn't, the point is moot.

 

[Otter]

Here we go again...

You're quite right, of course.
The navy should send a gunboat to teach those pesky natives a lesson.
Have a chat with TB and toad.

And breathe, pause, and breathe, pause, and breathe.

If it winds you up so much just ignore the thread? We're in two basic camps, those who know there is technically a problem but see no reason why it should stop them going to Belgium and another group who know there is technically a problem and don't want to risk going to Belgium and being fined. Neither group is likely to change their perspective until the Belgian position has been clarified.

 

[nortada]

I would tone down the British bit as, for all I know, any other foreign, or even Belgian, vessel would have received the same set of questions. They were, after all, printed on the form that he was holding. I freely admitted that I was in contravention of some of what I assume were local regs. If they had tried to take action then we would have had the conversation about whether local regs apply to foreign vessels but, as they didn't, the point is moot.

Can't comment on 'Other Flagged Vessels' but the issue of foreign flagged visiting vessels being checked against local regulations (to which they do not have easy access), could open a large can of worms?

Probably not too bigger problem within Western Europe but elsewhere - see the More Portuguese Hassle element of this forum!

Sorry Fred Drift - back to red diesel in Belgium!

 

[Kurrawong_Kid]

Surely checking against local regulations is common practice? I recollect a British Flagged yachtsman leaving New Zealand illegally because he did not have their legal requirements; the French Customs have checked my safety gear against their regulations; and British Surveyors regularly prevent unsound foreign merchant ships from putting to sea in the UK. So if the Belgians want to test for "red diesel" or oars or whatever it's certainly within their rights and British yachtspersons have the duty to know what is expected. That's why organisations such as the RYA and CA issue guidance whether by book or internet.
Wingdiver is correct-if you go to Belgium and they feel so inclined you could be fined because their regulations state you cannot have "red diesel". You take a chance if you go.
When I was boarded in Ostende a few years ago, before all this hoo-ha, the Officer told me that the main thing they were looking at was the Registration documents to try to prevent the escape of stolen boats from NE Europe. If so, a jolly good thing I would have thought.

 

[Koeketiene]

And breathe, pause, and breathe, pause, and breathe.

If it winds you up so much just ignore the thread? We're in two basic camps, those who know there is technically a problem but see no reason why it should stop them going to Belgium and another group who know there is technically a problem and don't want to risk going to Belgium and being fined. Neither group is likely to change their perspective until the Belgian position has been clarified.

I agree with you on the 2 camps bit and that was not what I was getting annoyed about.
What gets me is the belief that just because you're flying a UK ensign, you're exempt from local rules and regs when you're visiting another country.
Your yacht is NOT a bit of UK territory abroad.

I'm currently in France - driving a UK registered car. Should I get stopped and fined by the local gendarmes for not having a fluorescent jacket are a breathalyser kit (required by French law) can I just tell them to sod off and that this does not apply to me because my car is UK registered?
In fact, should I bother to drive on the right hand side of the road?

Surely checking against local regulations is common practice? I recollect a British Flagged yachtsman leaving New Zealand illegally because he did not have their legal requirements; the French Customs have checked my safety gear against their regulations; and British Surveyors regularly prevent unsound foreign merchant ships from putting to sea in the UK. So if the Belgians want to test for "red diesel" or oars or whatever it's certainly within their rights and British yachtspersons have the duty to know what is expected. That's why organisations such as the RYA and CA issue guidance whether by book or internet.
Wingdiver is correct-if you go to Belgium and they feel so inclined you could be fined because their regulations state you cannot have "red diesel". You take a chance if you go.
When I was boarded in Ostende a few years ago, before all this hoo-ha, the Officer told me that the main thing they were looking at was the Registration documents to try to prevent the escape of stolen boats from NE Europe. If so, a jolly good thing I would have thought.

+1 Well said

 

[BlueSkyNick]

I've come to the conclusion that it's alll an over-reaction to a response from the Belgians asking them to clarify their official position .

Yep, one particular forumite caused 100's of hours of debate involving HMRC, Treasury Minister, RYA, BMF, suppliers and producers. And now every marine diesel outlet has to ask customers to sign a non-nonsensical piece of paper, which goes into a file never to be seen again.

 

[Burnham Bob]

Maybe I'm the forumite MoodyNick is referring to who created the red diesel debate. All I did was write to the Belgian Embassy asking them if I was liable to get fined if I stopped off at Ostend en route from Dunkerque to Vlissingen. They wrote back and said it was offical policy to fine boats with red diesel in their tanks. That led to a YM article, a PBO write up and questions to our Euro MP, as well as lots of other postings

The fact that people are still asking the question I think justifies the direct approach to the Belgians for a yes or no answer. So apologies to MoodyNick if he thinks the deabte got out of hand. Notwithstanding experience on the ground to the contrary (and there is a lot of it) the official Belgian stance is that you will be fined.

But I don't think I can claim credit for the ridiculous declaration we now have to sign although I do have delusions of grandeur in other directions.

 

[sailorman]

Maybe I'm the forumite MoodyNick is referring to who created the red diesel debate. All I did was write to the Belgian Embassy asking them if I was liable to get fined if I stopped off at Ostend en route from Dunkerque to Vlissingen. They wrote back and said it was official policy to fine boats with red diesel in their tanks. That led to a YM article, a PBO write up and questions to our Euro MP, as well as lots of other postings

The fact that people are still asking the question I think justifies the direct approach to the Belgians for a yes or no answer. So apologies to MoodyNick if he thinks the debate got out of hand. Notwithstanding experience on the ground to the contrary (and there is a lot of it) the official Belgian stance is that you will be fined.

But I don't think I can claim credit for the ridiculous declaration we now have to sign although I do have delusions of grandeur in other directions.

If you ask, they can only ever quote the official line. they have no option

 

[wingdiver]

Perhaps if more of us wrote to our Euro MPs and put the point over, we might see some sensible resolution of this rather than sitting here posting on forums (or is that fora?) and picking at each other.
As it stands, the UK were supposed to sort out a solution whilst being allowed to keep red in our tanks/harbours/marinas for the duration of that process.
Unfortunately, the powers that be decided not to bother and we, the cruising boat owners are the ones who suffer.
I don't think the RYA have helped in agreeing the stupid HM Revenue & Customs form as a 'solution'.
All that is required is to get someone somewhere to agree that any EU citizen who has paid the correct duty on their fuel will not get fined in another member state.
After all, that's what happens with road vehicles, wine/beer/spirits etc.
The red diesel in boats is the anomaly and needs sorting at EU level.
I think Burnham Bob's approach was a sensible one.
Now we need to follow this up with an email to our Euro MP to get them to do something for us. You can find who your MEP is by putting your postcode in here - http://www.writetothem.com/

 

[Burnham Bob]

It's worth pointing out that the official French and Dutch response is that you can't have red diesel in cans, but you can have it in your tank with the right receipts showing duty paid in the UK.

I know I got the official Belgain response, but I still feel a little worried trusting to an unofficial blind eye being turned by the Belgian customs.

And just for information my Euro MP agreed with the Belgians (mind you he's a Lib Dem which goes to show that proportional representation can produce some very strange results).

 

[MoodySabre]

I still feel a little worried trusting to an unofficial blind eye being turned by the Belgian customs.

I think you did the right thing Bob. The experience of many seems to have been that the blind eye is being turned and that our initial fears have not been met. If, by next summer, there have been no positively identified people fined then I shall visit Ostend again.

 

[nortada]

Why Ostend?

If, by next summer, there have been no positively identified people fined then I shall visit Ostend again.

Other than being there, what are the attractions of Ostend?

We have been there a couple of times but never felt any great desire to return.

Certainly not to run the risk of a substantial fine!

 

[sailorman]

Other than being there, what are the attractions of Ostend?

We have been there a couple of times but never felt any great desire to return.

Certainly not to run the risk of a substantial fine!

dont bother then but you missed a fantastic Vor Anker this May.

http://www.oostendevooranker.be/

http://www.myspace.com/chiensdmer/music/songs/friggin-in-the-riggin-4137019

http://s118.photobucket.com/albums/o88/orwellbridge/?action=view&current=MVI_0256.mp4

http://s118.photobucket.com/albums/o88/orwellbridge/?action=view&current=MVI_0252.mp4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ys8m_B8uqvw&feature=player_detailpage