red diesel goes to appeal

[simon_sluggett]

Tax is the only tool governments have to change behaviour.
People dont like tax, its painful, but it works. Its both redistrubution of wealth and punative at the same time. But on the other side of the coin tax breaks should be available for those who cut consumption/emission
So if people wont give up their excesses voluntarily tax em till they stop. Until there is an effective system of carbon emission rationing (it will come one day) its all that will work.

 

[Superflid]

While stories like this one keep appearing I feel less and less like bothering......

 

[fireball]

[ QUOTE ]
Tax is the only tool governments have to change behaviour.

[/ QUOTE ]
Not quite true - it may be their favourite method though - partially because it gets more money into the treasury for them to play with and partly because it is relatively easy to introduce...
The problem is - to keep this the (sudo) free country it is, the government cannot be seen to be making peoples choices for them....

 

[oldharry]

"Tax is the only tool governments have to change behaviour."

You have missed my point. Government is empowered to set up the legislation by which the country is run. That is a much tougher tool than taxation.

Politicians are scared of biting the bullet - it costs them votes - so they apply taxes instead: preferably indirect stealth taxes.

That way they can a)stay in power, b) SAY they are doing 'all they can' (especially to people who believe tax is the only tool?) to reduce emissions. c) rake in loads of extra cash. and d) sit back, feel good, and actually DO sweet nothing about the very real problems facing us.

Politicians and government HAVE the power to create legislation; legislation which will force us to change our power consumption habits. Taxation only hits the poorer sections of the community. To be truly effective as a means of changing habits, regulation has to be able to hit everybody regardless of their wealth - and not just move the affordability factor a bit further up the income scale.

For example, rather than making cars only affordable to the privileged minority, limit the number of cars on the road at any one time. How? quite simple: if you want to register a new car, you must take an old one permanently off the road.

New cars should be required to conform to much stricter emissions requirements - manufacturers should be forced to meet stringent emissions rules, or go out of business. OK cars might not be so fast or what we are used to - but we are apparently facing a global crisis.

Other forms of transport should similarly have to meet stringent emissions limits, or simply be refused permission to operate within UK airspace/waters.

And as for recreational craft? - which is where this all started - Simple:

Raggies Rool - OK! /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

 

[Superflid]

Just a thought along the "saving the planet" lines, and not criticising the efforts to reduce power consumption, simply an observation.....

When a TV is left on standby, is the power it consumes mostly being wasted as heat?

If so, when your TV is completely off, the central heating will have to work that little bit more to replace the heat the TV was producing.

So the energy is just coming from a different source, not being saved.

 

[ShipsWoofy]

excellent point.

I have found that jamming a stick in the tumble drier lock and letting it run with the door wide open keeps the heating bill down too.

 

[fireball]

And here's me just leaving the Gas hob turned on ....

 

[simon_sluggett]

Legislation can only be used to stop people doing things. It doesn't encourage investment in new technology to provide solutions so we can still enjoy life and not go back to the dark ages.
Money is the great mover , it get things done. If the government squanders it, replace them, but dont blame taxation per se just because you dont like it.
And the thing about (indirect) taxes is that they are voluntary, you dont have to pay them. You are free to not consume that which the tax is charged on and so not pay it. This is what freedom is all about in a democracy,freedom with responsibility. Not the damn everyone else in the world kind of freedom that derogation is promoting.

 

[fireball]

[ QUOTE ]
And the thing about (indirect) taxes is that they are voluntary, you dont have to pay them.

[/ QUOTE ]
But that is the issue isn't it - there is no current viable alternative to diesel and petrol ... and even if the fast electric car does come about - it still needs to be charged up ...
Meanwhile the government just hikes up the taxes on all the things they don't want us doing - without providing a good alternative .....
Just look at PUBLIC transport ... run by PRIVATE companies ... and still not time efficient.

 

[rickp]

[ QUOTE ]
and even if the fast electric car does come about - it still needs to be charged up ...

[/ QUOTE ]

They make one (well, Lotus do for the Yanks, not available here): The Tesla Roadster. See review. Looks the mutts nutts - but can hardly call it enviro-friendly with all those li-ion batteries /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif Bit pricey too!

Rick

 

[fireball]

[ QUOTE ]

http://reddit.com/info/aw5v/comments
The Tesla Roadster not only resembles the Lotus Elise, apparently it pretty much is one -- the car is assembled by Lotus and is heavily based on the Lotus Elise design. This was probably a good choice since Lotus specializes in extremely lightweight vehicles. If you're going to be hauling 900lbs of batteries around, it makes sense to make the rest of the vehicle as light as absolutely possible.

It is, however, silly to make a big deal about the cost advantage of electricity over gasoline for a vehicle whose base cost is $85K!


[/ QUOTE ]
Hmm .... £50k for a car ... that is a LOT of fuel ....

 

[rickp]

Sure. It'll come down in price. The drive train engineering is the important thing - and it does a sensible distance on a charge and at normal car speeds....

It definitely needs some early adopters to start the economies of scale ball rolling...

Rick

 

[ShipsWoofy]

[ QUOTE ]
Hmm .... £50k for a car ... that is a LOT of fuel ....

[/ QUOTE ]

hmm, if only we could see a history of new technology tumbling in price as more people buy it, I just wish I could find a single example.

 

[fireball]

you could look at PC prices .... down by 50% in 10 years ...

 

[duncan]

Rerice of canadian marine diesel?

thanks but rather difficult to relate this to our prices !

I would like to make a direct comparision between our current (say) 45ppl (tax free..........) price and that paid in Canada for a guy with a boat.

Someone must know?

 

[rickp]

Rerice of canadian marine diesel?

How about these prices?

Rick

 

[BrendanS]

digital cameras, mobile phones, hifi's, tv's, dvd recorders, ram memory, contact lenses, the list is huge.

 

[rickp]

I think a couple of folks have missed the irony in your statement /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif Or being deliberately obtuse...

Rick

 

[Mike21]

So basically you want a bunch of politicians to enact legislation to force us to comply with their wiill whether the majority wish to or not ?

That's a dictatorship, not a democracy which we're supposed to live in.
Ther's been lots of arguments about the majority of scientist support the global warming scenario, so they must be right.

But a few centuries ago, the majority thought the earth was flat?

You want to change peoples behavour,try giving them alternatives, rather than as you advocate, tax the c**p out of them, but of course that's the easy option to advocate, anything else would require some effort

 

[duncan]

Rerice of canadian marine diesel?

so, unless my calcs are out or my estimates unreasonable, they are paying 30ppl tax paid and we are paying 45ppl 'tax free'

someone tell me I am wrong - this rather turns the thread on it's head surely?????????????????????? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif