Red Diesel can only be used in UK Waters!

[sailorman]

I don’t understand why the Belgians have to be blamed for a situation in UK;

Belgium was the last country in mainland Europe (I believe in 2006) that forbid the use of red diesel for leisure boating.
The first year after introduction of this law, there have been a few controll campaigns from customs.
The last two years I have not heard of ANY fines for using red diesel, nor any controls from customs.
On a Belgium boat forum, nobody could tell me of a recent case of customs control nor a fine.
Would be interested if somebody on here could tell us a real case.

I’ve seen a cominiqué from Dhr. Cockuyt, Gewestelijk Directeur van Douane en Accijnzen, dd 10 june 2010, that a more “reasonable” policy will be used against red diesel usage, knowing the problem of boaters sailing from UK in to Belgium.

Apart from that, I don’t see the problem, when you come to Belgium, boat partially filled with red Diesel, you go to a Belgium harbour, and fill up with white diesel, cheaper then your red (even at 60/40).
Refueling you have to do anyway in most cases.
Keep the receipt and you'r save.

I do appreciate the reason for red Diesel in UK, (as explained in post #38 by NickH), but do realize that this is a UK only regulation and exception with benefit for UK boaters.
Belgium has adapted to Europe regulations just as all other mainland Europe country’s. If there is someone to blame then it is your government who chooses to handle different rules then other Europe country’s.

Ones again; white diesel in marina’s in Belgium is cheaper then your marine red at 60/40 split (at least it was in September 2010 and September 2011)

]Apart from that, I don’t see the problem, when you come to Belgium, boat partially filled with red Diesel, you go to a Belgium harbour, and fill up with white diesel, cheaper then your red (even at 60/40).
Refueling you have to do anyway In most cases.
Keep the receipt and you'r save.

in many cases we come over for a w/e, little time to visit Niewpoort or Blankengerge as the destination is Oostende & the bright lights

 

[yesod]

Belgium was the last country in mainland Europe (I believe in 2006) that forbid the use of red diesel for leisure boating.
The first year after introduction of this law, there have been a few controll campaigns from customs.
The last two years I have not heard of ANY fines for using red diesel, nor any controls from customs.
On a Belgium boat forum, nobody could tell me of a recent case of customs control nor a fine.
Would be interested if somebody on here could tell us a real case.

when asked, after some british boats had been fined, your embassy said:

I apologize for the somewhat belated reply to your last email but I wanted to make sure I had all pertinent information in my possession before coming back to you.

Although I understand the difficult position you and other British cruisers are in, I have to confirm that Belgium will indeed continue to fine pleasure vessels using dyed diesel. EU legislation clearly does not allow the use of dyed diesel for leisure vessels and Member States have to conform to this. It is worth noting that Belgium also used to allow for an exemption for pleasure vessels but put an end to it on the 31st of December 2006 in order to be in conformity with said EU legislation.

Belgian authorities have been in contact both with their British counterparts and with the Commission to explain it had no other choice but to implement EU legislation. Not doing so could be considered as an infringement. The Commission has never berated Belgium for its practice of fining the use of dyed diesel. Quite to the contrary, it is my understanding that the Commission has asked British authorities for explanations pertaining to its continued use of dyed diesel and started an investigation against the UK . Some of the confusion surrounding this question arises from early letters from the Commission which unfortunately contain some inaccurate information. As mentioned in my first email, we are currently waiting for a decision from the Commission and will in the meantime continue to respect and implement the EU legislation on the use of diesel.

Regards,
Serge Dickschen
Counsellor - Political Affairs
Embassy of Belgium
17 Grosvenor Crescent
London SW1X 7EE
020/7470 3727

note 'continue to fine'. this has precipitated the eu to pressure the uk to take action

 

[Beadle]

Its the use of the word only
The measure provides that red diesel for use as fuel for propelling private pleasure craft can only be used in UK waters. All purchasers of red diesel for use as fuel for propelling private pleasure craft will be required to sign a declaration to that effect. All purchasers will be made aware that if they travel outside UK waters they will be subject to the restrictions and prohibitions of other Member States.

Precisely so

So if the French or Belgians choose to stop you in International waters -- best have your cheque handy,

They enforce EU "law" in international waters where fishing is concerned - so why not for fuel?

All this is simple childish "payback" for vetoing their little treaty.

I wrote to my Euro MP when all this diesel nonsense started with a boat owner being fined by Dutch authorities two or more years ago and I was assured in writing that this sort of thing would not happen. And until now it hadn't.

I wonder what will happen if a French or Belgian boat runs low on fuel and has to top up in the UK. Will the French et al be testing their own boats who have visited the UK.

ANyone taking bets?

 

[hlb]

Just to get rid of one myth thats as old as the hills, ok it's 1980's information. But I got my trucks tank dipped on some dock. I admitted to customs that the truck regularly had red diesel in it as it traveled quite legally through the eastern block countries on red.

That dont matter he said, as long as it's not full of red here. They do not check tanks or pipes, just the colour of the stuff in the sample.

The only thing I cant tell you is, what percentage is acceptable.

Another thing that was quite normal for trucks like mine that did the middle east, was to carry big belly tanks under the trailer, these normally had red in them on the way down, but not conected to the engine. This was also quite legal and customs would put a seal on them if we asked.

Course on the way back we were on Saudi 4p a gallon white diesel and customs said we could have a "normal" tankful, which we did, except a normal tank full for us was about 650 gallons.

 

[ian38_39]

I know that technically it is worded as dyed diesel but does anyone know if Ireland are having the same problem with their Green stuff?

from what I understand there is no issue with the 60/40 split just purely the fact that it is red.
I can understand this being a problem for all country's that have duty free red diesel for commercial operations, both marine and land based, as effectively a home leisure boater returning from the uk could wave around their UK duty paid ticket for a couple of years after their visit while filling up from the local farm.

If the UK was to change the colour of all its marine diesel to anything other than red this would remove the issue for other member states.

We already have marine only fuel in that ULS with no bio content is manufactured specifically for marine use. putting a different dye into this and allowing everyone, commercial included, would mean no need for separate tanks at marinas and avoid all the supply issues that were flagged if we were to use white.

You still couldn't use it in UK road vehicles as it would still be marked, so there would be no more chance of fraud than there is now.

Am I missing something?

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

I know that technically it is worded as dyed diesel but does anyone know if Ireland are having the same problem with their Green stuff?

I wouldn't have thought Irish boats with green diesel get anywhere near Belgium and I guess, if they did, they'd very likely fill up with our red diesel on the way. But, yes, in principle I guess they'd have the same problem

 

[ian38_39]

I was thinking more the situation within the EU than fines in Belgium.

Potentially now the UK Gov has thrown boaters to the lions, by declaring that the red we purchase is sold on the basis that it is only legal within UK waters, I can't see it being long before all EU country's automatically stop and fine UK flagged boats.

Ireland is within reach of France so they are technically in the same situation if the spot fine is, as IMHO it will be, implemented by France.

 

[neale]

Theoretically, if an Irish boat visited the UK I guess under EU guidance we should be issuing them with fines for having dyed diesel outside of their territorial waters. I am not saying we should of course, just stating that that is how is probably should operate.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Ireland is within reach of France so they are technically in the same situation if the spot fine is, as IMHO it will be, implemented by France.

Thats supposition. So far nobody has been fined in France for having red diesel in their tanks and, in any case, the same advice applies ie fill up with a few litres of white diesel on entry into France and keep the receipt. As for Belgian and French customs ships marauding international waters looking for British and Irish boats to fine, I think that's complete nonsense. The French try very hard to attract British boaters into their ports and marinas and they are not going to do anything to damage that trade

 

[Nick_H]

Theoretically, if an Irish boat visited the UK I guess under EU guidance we should be issuing them with fines for having dyed diesel outside of their territorial waters. I am not saying we should of course, just stating that that is how is probably should operate.

Can you buy tax paid green diesel in Ireland? If not, then its not the same issue.

If a leisure boater from any EU country other than the UK is found with dyed diesel in their tanks it is cut and dried that they are committing a crime, and they can be fined or their boat seized. If a UK boater is found with red diesel in their tanks, then foreign customs officials can't be sure if they've paid duty on the 60% used for propulsion as they should have, or whether they've illegally obtained duty free red diesel. This is the issue the Belgians are complaining about, although it may well be a roundabout way of trying to force the UK to drop the 60/40 split

 

[mm1]

If any one thinks that French plod will ignore this you are very misguided!.All they have to do is walk along the pontoons in Cherbourg,400 British boats,ooops red diesel sir that will be 500euros please,end of,200000euros!!think again i would love to be wrong but somehow i don't think i am,regards mm1.

 

[neale]

Can you buy tax paid green diesel in Ireland? If not, then its not the same issue.

If a leisure boater from any EU country other than the UK is found with dyed diesel in their tanks it is cut and dried that they are committing a crime, and they can be fined or their boat seized. If a UK boater is found with red diesel in their tanks, then foreign customs officials can't be sure if they've paid duty on the 60% used for propulsion as they should have, or whether they've illegally obtained duty free red diesel. This is the issue the Belgians are complaining about, although it may well be a roundabout way of trying to force the UK to drop the 60/40 split

My point was that if EU regulations state that member states are not allowed to use DYED diesel and that those states should be fining boaters found with dyed diesel in their tanks, then we in the UK should probably be fining any Irish boats that come over. My point was more that the Irish don't have to travel as far as Belgium or France to find themselves in a similar situation. The point is that it is not Red, Green or any other colour that is the issue. It is the use of the word Dyed. Ireland is in the EU so whether tax is paid on the fuel or not us irrelevant in the same way that the Belgium's see it as relevant whether we have paid tax on our red. The issue seems to be the used of Dyed fuel period.

ps I am not condoning the fining of Irish boats visiting the UK

 

[neale]

If any one thinks that French plod will ignore this you are very misguided!.All they have to do is walk along the pontoons in Cherbourg,400 British boats,ooops red diesel sir that will be 500euros please,end of,200000euros!!think again i would love to be wrong but somehow i don't think i am,regards mm1.

Would the fines, large as they might be in the short term, cover the loss of long term revenue from visiting boats? The answer is almost certainly not. Lets hope the French can see just how short sighted it would be to act on this latest information.

 

[neale]

Ok here's my solution to the problem.

Can anyone see a flaw (I'm sure there will be loads )

All marinas go over to selling full duty white diesel. This could be fame free.
Working harbours continue to supply red for commercial operations.

Leisure boats can't fill up in the harbours and commercial boats won't want to fill up in the Marinas. (this is where it is pointed out that away from the south coast marinas and harbours are often one and the same. Here they may have to supply two outlets)

All us leisure boaters keep a record and receipts for fuel purchased

At the end of the year we all do a simple tax return to HMRC declaring our percentage split for propulsion and non propulsion.

Anyone who declares more than 60/40 has to supply supporting information such as logs etc.

Anyone declaring 60/40 just supplies fuel receipts which I guess would need to be easily identifiable as boat refuelling so that we don't 'accidentally' chuck a few of our car refill receipts in.

HMRC sent us a rebate of duty for 40% of the fuel purchased that year.

We have white diesel in tanks so the continentals are happy, we still retain the 60/40 split which , lets be honest, just means that we pay the same for our fuel as the Europeans anyway.

Job Done!

Ok now you can start tearing it apart

 

[mm1]

fine

so just like our goverment care about our boat building industry,i am sure the French will think the same!,it's all about short term revenue.I personally think the fine will be much greater!.I was fined 100euros 10yrs ago for not having my ssr reg in cherbourg(it was a new boat & we hadn't got round to it)again i hope i am wrong!!,mm1.

 

[ian38_39]

My point was that if EU regulations state that member states are not allowed to use DYED diesel and that those states should be fining boaters found with dyed diesel in their tanks, then we in the UK should probably be fining any Irish boats that come over. My point was more that the Irish don't have to travel as far as Belgium or France to find themselves in a similar situation. The point is that it is not Red, Green or any other colour that is the issue. It is the use of the word Dyed. Ireland is in the EU so whether tax is paid on the fuel or not us irrelevant in the same way that the Belgium's see it as relevant whether we have paid tax on our red. The issue seems to be the used of Dyed fuel period.

ps I am not condoning the fining of Irish boats visiting the UK

It is the DYED bit that I was referring to and the reason how are Ireland getting on with their green?

I agree that it is the same situation in that it is DYED but could it be that the EU would be happy with the word red instead of DYED? even making possible an official amendment to the regulation.

If the argument is that EU country's use Red Dye in their Diesel to indicate that Duty has not been paid on it then I would say it is valid.

The UK stance makes it difficult to police the use of duty free fuel in their own country as any resident, after visiting the UK in their 6' rowing boat and obtaining a receipt for the red diesel they put into the jerry can on board, could technically claim for an unrestricted amount of time that the fuel in the tank was purchased legally in the UK and has not been used up since, while at the same time opening an account with the local farmer who is supplying him red by the barrel.

Changing to a different colour would even allow the UK to do away with the 60/40 split and charge 100% of the minimum European rate tax for propulsion fuels, the end result being the same priced fuel without the complications.

It would need the rest of the EU to acknowledge a change in the wording from DYED to RED and I have a feeling there was an underlying reason for this in the first place. I suppose, as someone else commented earlier, if you were to add a blue dye to red then you would have purple and would still fall outside the clutches of the law, if the law says red.

 

[Nick_H]

My point was that if EU regulations state that member states are not allowed to use DYED diesel and that those states should be fining boaters found with dyed diesel in their tanks, then we in the UK should probably be fining any Irish boats that come over. My point was more that the Irish don't have to travel as far as Belgium or France to find themselves in a similar situation. The point is that it is not Red, Green or any other colour that is the issue. It is the use of the word Dyed. Ireland is in the EU so whether tax is paid on the fuel or not us irrelevant in the same way that the Belgium's see it as relevant whether we have paid tax on our red. The issue seems to be the used of Dyed fuel period.

ps I am not condoning the fining of Irish boats visiting the UK

No, that's not correct. The problem is not dyed fuel per se, but dyed fuel which has had duty paid on it. AFAIK, only the UK is in that position, and only leisure boaters, beacuse we pay duty on the 60% element used for propulsion.

 

[ian38_39]

I thought Ireland paid a reduced rate of duty on Green and no duty on red?

 

[neale]

No, that's not correct. The problem is not dyed fuel per se, but dyed fuel which has had duty paid on it. AFAIK, only the UK is in that position, and only leisure boaters, beacuse we pay duty on the 60% element used for propulsion.

Sorry but I think you are wrong.

No one in Europe seems to care about the percentage split. There was some official response from Belgium posted on these fora recently that stated it was the fact that the fuel was dyed that was the issue. Because dyed fuel meant lower tax fuel. Even of we paid 100% on red diesel, they would still not be happy.

 

[Nick_H]

Sorry but I think you are wrong.

No one in Europe seems to care about the percentage split. There was some official response from Belgium posted on these fora recently that stated it was the fact that the TAX PAID fuel was dyed that was the issue. Because dyed fuel meant lower tax fuel. Even of we paid 100% on red diesel, they would still not be happy.

If you put the words "tax paid" in front of fuel in your last post (as i've added in capitals), then I agree, but I think that's what i'd already said?