Recycled (Circular Economy or Closed Loop) Sail Manufacturing

[solosails]

Hi All,

I have just started a debate within the sailmaking industry over on wwwsaildesigner.net on the creation of a 'closed loop' sailmaking industry system, whereby there is a line of sails (probably just cruising sails for now) that have a deposit paid on them by the customers that is redeemable on a new sail at the end of the old's working life.

The idea being an incentive to get end users to return their sails for reclamation of the fibres and raw materials specifically for them to then be re-manufactured into new cloth and rings etc for a circular or closed loop type of manufacturing process. Based on Ellen MacArthur's very amazing work http://www.ellenmacarthurfoundation.org/circular-economy

The hope is that this system will create at a minimum of 50% less landfill of old non biodegradable plastic sails, a massive reduction of new oil based fiber manufacture etc. It would also mean that any scrap materials at manufacture that normally get land filled, would be incorporated in the circular reclamation.

The reason I post here is that I know the sailmaking industry is keen to do it, but how do the public feel about this proposal?

Potentially (although no framework has been made yet) the customer would bear an initial extra one off cost to join the system in the form of a deposit. This is then applied to the cost of the next sail and so on. Obviously there is far more work for the sailmakers as they have to strip and separate all of the individual components of each returned sail.

The other thing to consider is that the sails might well need to initially (until processes improve) be a little heavier in weight in order to compensate for the lower tenacity of the recycled yarns. This is the reason for stating cruising sails would probably be the first to line of manufacturing to see this circular economy type production. However, I feel most cruisers would be happy to have a heavier cloth in the knowledge that the sail is basically going to produce little or no waste ever again and is using a fraction of the amount of oil to produce it.

Please let me know your thoughts on this proposal.

Thanks, Andrew

 

[prv]

So is there any tangible benefit to the customer? The greenery may matter to some, but if that's the only positive (against a higher cost and apparently lower quality) then I doubt you'll have many takers. The amount of oil that a typical cruising sailor consumes in the form of sailcloth is surely a drop in the ocean compared to his consumption of fuel (road and domestic heating, more than boat) and other plastics over the same time period. So it's a token gesture rather than a practical benefit even from the green point of view.

Pete

 

[RAI]

Why do sails have to be recycled as sails (of inferior quality). Cannot the material be recycled into car bumpers or plastic bottles?

 

[solosails]

So is there any tangible benefit to the customer? The greenery may matter to some, but if that's the only positive (against a higher cost and apparently lower quality) then I doubt you'll have many takers. The amount of oil that a typical cruising sailor consumes in the form of sailcloth is surely a drop in the ocean compared to his consumption of fuel (road and domestic heating, more than boat) and other plastics over the same time period. So it's a token gesture rather than a practical benefit even from the green point of view.

Pete

Hi Pete, thanks for the reply.

Well, the benefit to the customer is that he/she is simply creating less landfill waste (it all has to go somewhere), less pollution and less use of oil (actually the amount of oil used by sailcloth manufacturers worldwide in terms of plastic yarns is staggering, and when we add each drop in the ocean that all other industries use as well, it is actually becomes the ocean itself, not just a drop).

I know we are all aware of our thinner wallets these days, so it is really only an option for those who can afford it or who want to do something active for the future of the planet and our children. But as processes develop, these types of systems become cheaper, and more efficient meaning that eventually it is cheaper and more affordable than the original way of doing it, but we have to start somewhere, and if it takes the minority that can afford it to start the process, then that's great!

I see this sort of approach to manufacturing to be the norm in the future, much like we are now totally used to recycling our household waste every day, or like you used to pay deposits on your fizzy drinks as a kid, we still bought them and enjoyed them, and those bottles were re-used for years saving energy and waste... exactly the same principle.

It means more work for the sailmakers and initially a slight cost increase to the user (but only once, much like a deposit on a gas bottle etc), so it makes little or no difference to the end user apart from the knowledge that they are helping make a cleaner environment.

So, I guess, in answer to your question, no, there is no immediate 'tangible' benefit to the individual sailor, the sail will still be a sail and the sail will last as long, but it will make a difference to the cleanliness and amount of life in the beautiful sea that you are sailing on, and the ferocity and stability of the wind that propels you, and the height of the sea that batters and erodes your coast, and the pollution in the air that you and your grandchildren are breathing.

It's something we all have no choice to care about eventually, but for now, we have to start somewhere.

 

[solosails]

Why do sails have to be recycled as sails (of inferior quality). Cannot the material be recycled into car bumpers or plastic bottles?

Yes, this is a question to be faced, there are a few ways to reclaim the fibres, one is to actually scavenge them as it were and turn them into fluff in order to be re-spun, the other is to de-polymerize them which actually breaks them down into constituent chemical parts to be re-drawn, another is to melt them.

The later means that there is no need for the plastic to be made into fibres again, so it could and probably would go anywhere as you suggest. However, melting is not a very environmentally 'healthy' way of doing it as it produces toxic fumes.

hopefully, there are going to be many points brought up here that will help develop this idea, this being one of them, thanks.

 

[jac]

Not sure about the deposit bit. How would that work when boats get sold. How would you tell whether or not the sail traded in actually had a deposit on it or not. Given that some cruising sails are decades old and have had maybe a dozen owners it could get messy.

Far cleaner would be a market to buy old sails. Whilst we have agencies for 2nd hand sails they obviously don't want to be stuck with old junk that won't sell and as a end user where do I scrap my dead sails. If the "scrap value" of the material was reasonable they could be recycled with minimal admin overheads.

Until you get that market for scrap sails though I think you're going to fighting a losing battle.

 

[solosails]

Not sure about the deposit bit. How would that work when boats get sold. How would you tell whether or not the sail traded in actually had a deposit on it or not. Given that some cruising sails are decades old and have had maybe a dozen owners it could get messy.

Far cleaner would be a market to buy old sails. Whilst we have agencies for 2nd hand sails they obviously don't want to be stuck with old junk that won't sell and as a end user where do I scrap my dead sails. If the "scrap value" of the material was reasonable they could be recycled with minimal admin overheads.

Until you get that market for scrap sails though I think you're going to fighting a losing battle.

Good point, my initial thoughts are the deposit would be accompanied by a certificate as it were (very much the same as buying a new gas bottle) you cannot claim the money back unless you have the certificate.

I see the point about selling the boat on, but if the system became normal, then everyone is in the same boat as it were, the buyer would have lost his deposit on the sale of his old boat and gained on the new, and so on.

RE second hand sails, yes, absolutely this is a very good way to keep the life of sails in the system, but they usually have stretched so that they dont work very well, which is why buying new is better if you can.

RE the scrap value of existing sails, yes, absoloutley, if this system gets off the ground, old sails would very much have a scrap value, just like all the old plastic bottles we recycle, the recycling companies make money out of that which is why they pick it up for free. Sailmakers would just be a repository for old sails to be collected by the salvagers.

 

[solosails]

The other way to look at is is that it could be a rental, rather than a deposit, so you pay for the sail for say three years (at the same sort of price you would pay for a new sail that you own), then it is returned to the sailmaker for a new one to be made which again is rented.

This way, you always have new fast sails for the same price. .

The big issue with this is that there is a high risk to the sailmaker as he has no control over when payments or return is made (either could be a problem)

 

[Tranona]

Cruising sails are not consumables like fizzy drinks. As jac says, for many they last almost a lifetime. Doubt there are many who buy more than one suit of sails for a boat in their ownership. I have owned my boat since 1980 and have only bought 3 sails in that time. Still have the original 1963 suit, some of which are still serviceable. Life of cared for sails is probably 10 years plus and can't see anybody paying a deposit with the chance of getting it back in 10 years.

As suggested, better to get a recycling system going and offering the discount on trading in against new sails. However suspect the scrap value of old sails would be low so probably not a big incentive.

 

[solosails]

Cruising sails are not consumables like fizzy drinks. As jac says, for many they last almost a lifetime. Doubt there are many who buy more than one suit of sails for a boat in their ownership. I have owned my boat since 1980 and have only bought 3 sails in that time. Still have the original 1963 suit, some of which are still serviceable. Life of cared for sails is probably 10 years plus and can't see anybody paying a deposit with the chance of getting it back in 10 years.

As suggested, better to get a recycling system going and offering the discount on trading in against new sails. However suspect the scrap value of old sails would be low so probably not a big incentive.

Hi Tranona,

Well, the fizzy drink is consumable, but the bottle isn't, which is why we all recycle our bottles these days to save materials and energy etc. But it was a point I made to say that the idea of a refundable deposit on an item we buy is not a new one, and is not such a strange thing to apply to sails as well.

Re sail's lifespan, yes, they do (or at least should) last for very many years, but even f they are looked after and washed etc, the shape and performance of a Dacron sail will have deteriorated so badly after good general use over a ten year period, that although it may look in good shape, the boats performance is probably suffering badly.

The amount of times I've heard a customer say how amazed he/she is with the performance of their boat after they have changed the sails for the first time in ten years, is amazing.

Of course, we cannot all afford to buy new sails every 5 years, in fact, I haven't changed mine for way too long either! but for those that do appreciate the performance gain from new sails and can afford that luxury may want to consider the option of a recycled sail perhaps? (I would!)

 

[Angele]

Cruising sails are not consumables like fizzy drinks. As jac says, for many they last almost a lifetime. Doubt there are many who buy more than one suit of sails for a boat in their ownership. I have owned my boat since 1980 and have only bought 3 sails in that time. Still have the original 1963 suit, some of which are still serviceable. Life of cared for sails is probably 10 years plus and can't see anybody paying a deposit with the chance of getting it back in 10 years.

As suggested, better to get a recycling system going and offering the discount on trading in against new sails. However suspect the scrap value of old sails would be low so probably not a big incentive.

+1

To be of any interest, I would want to know that the "deposit" would be returned by any sail maker, not just the one who originally supplied the sail - not only would the latter restrict the ability to shop around for a good deal, but it also means you are taking a huge risk that the sailmaker would still be in business many years later.

If I buy new, I want it to be new - not made out of UV degraded yarn. And, no, I don't want my sails heavier to make up for the fact that the material is weaker.

.... another is to melt them.

The later means that there is no need for the plastic to be made into fibres again, so it could and probably would go anywhere as you suggest. However, melting is not a very environmentally 'healthy' way of doing it as it produces toxic fumes.

Melting plastic (including derivatives of polyester) does not produce toxic fumes. Burning it does, but melting is the way that many plastics are currently recycled - e.g. PET bottles - or more exactly "downcycled" as the recovered plastic moves down the quality chain. I'd rather have my used sails turned into something else (as RAI suggests) than be reincarnated into a substandard set of "new" ones.

 

[solosails]

+1

To be of any interest, I would want to know that the "deposit" would be returned by any sail maker, not just the one who originally supplied the sail - not only would the latter restrict the ability to shop around for a good deal, but it also means you are taking a huge risk that the sailmaker would still be in business many years later.

If I buy new, I want it to be new - not made out of UV degraded yarn. And, no, I don't want my sails heavier to make up for the fact that the material is weaker.



Melting plastic (including derivatives of polyester) does not produce toxic fumes. Burning it does, but melting is the way that many plastics are currently recycled. I'd rather have my used sails turned into something else (as RAI suggests) than be reincarnated into a substandard set of "new" ones.

Hi, Yep, the deposit certificate would be usable between any participating sailmaker, so you wouldn't be tied into one sailmaker.

I'm surprised by the 'heavier' issue, personally, for cruising I like a heavy sail, it tears less easily and and generally resits chafe etc more, but yep, get the point about not wanting to have the same strength for a gain in weight.

All quite negative so far!

 

[RAI]

Refundable deposits would only work if they were global. I have bought sails in Germany and Belgium, for example. Better might be a requirement that sail retailers must accept old sails and dispose of them properly. This would not be a problem if sails can be recycled profitably. However, I fear that the cost of recycling sails may be greater than the value of the recycled raw product. In which case, the deposit you propose would actually be a recycling fee imposed on the first buyer.

 

[prv]

as a end user where do I scrap my dead sails. If the "scrap value" of the material was reasonable they could be recycled with minimal admin overheads.

People like Quba and a couple of others will accept old sails which they turn into trendy overpriced jackets and bags. They do not, however, pay for them (I think they may give you a cheap very basic bag if you deliver the sail to them) which implies that the scrap value of used polyester sailcloth is basically nil.

Pete

 

[prv]

Hi, Yep, the deposit certificate would be usable between any participating sailmaker

And what about the non-participating ones?

Pete

 

[solosails]

Refundable deposits would only work if they were global. I have bought sails in Germany and Belgium, for example. Better might be a requirement that sail retailers must accept old sails and dispose of them properly. This would not be a problem if sails can be recycled profitably. However, I fear that the cost of recycling sails may be greater than the value of the recycled raw product. In which case, the deposit you propose would actually be a recycling fee imposed on the first buyer.

Hmm, good points.

The certificate would have to be universal, and in fact we are talking about this on a global scale, so that one is in for sure.

Yes, I'm thinking that trying to specifically close the loop exclusively could cost more money rather than just adding to to the 'pool' of reclaimed PET plastics. But in this case the main principle is that the cloth manufacturer start to produce a line of cloth made from a minimum of 50% reclaimed yarns. It comes to the same thing.

What I'm mainly concerned with is the lessening of new plastic usage to create sails. I also want to lessen the amount of landfill for the end of their working lives as well.

 

[Angele]

All quite negative so far!

We can agree on that.

 

[solosails]

And what about the non-participating ones?

Pete

Well, you wouldn't be able to get your deposit back from them, but you would be able to from any of the others (you don't necessarily need to buy a new one from the the deposit payee)

 

[prv]

Well, the fizzy drink is consumable, but the bottle isn't, which is why we all recycle our bottles these days to save materials and energy etc. But it was a point I made to say that the idea of a refundable deposit on an item we buy is not a new one, and is not such a strange thing to apply to sails as well.

The point is that a fizzy drink is a short-term purchase - if you drink fizzy drinks then you're buying new ones and disposing of old containers in a more or less continuous stream. For sailors (as opposed to sailmakers), sails are not a stream, they're a one-off capital purchase. It makes very little sense to compare the two.

Pete

 

[Angele]

Yes, I'm thinking that trying to specifically close the loop exclusively could cost more money rather than just adding to to the 'pool' of reclaimed PET plastics. But in this case the main principle is that the cloth manufacturer start to produce a line of cloth made from a minimum of 50% reclaimed yarns. It comes to the same thing.

What I'm mainly concerned with is the lessening of new plastic usage to create sails. I also want to lessen the amount of landfill for the end of their working lives as well.

Is adding to the 'pool' of reclaimed PET such a bad thing? At least it is being reused. When we stop buying plastic garden furniture, wheelie bins and non-food grade buckets, then I can see your point. Until then, plastic recycling is reducing the total amount of plastic in the environment.