Recreational craft regulations and pre-1997 Westerly in France

[John H]

Hi. Our Westerley was built in 1988 before introduction of the RCD regulations and was based in the UK until 2018 when we moved her to a marina in France. She was still in France on 31 Dec 2020, and we're only now able to consider sailing back to the UK and then perhaps to sell her here.

The VAT position at least seems to be clear i.e. that we can still claim Returned Goods Relief. However I've been unable to find clear information about the UKCA Recreational Craft Regulations. I understand that in at least some circumstances (I hope not ours) the UK has chosen to discontinue the pre 1997 exemption, so I'm concerned about the possibility of a requirement for certification to meet the RCR either now or at some point in the future. Is anyone able to clarify the situation - ideally with a pointer to some kind of authoritative statement that certification will not be necessary?

Another option might be to sell the boat in France. I believe the situation there is that the EU have kept the exemption so compliance with the RCD would not be necessary, but again could anyone confirm?

 

[Tranona]

You will not have to recertify because you are not importing the boat but just returning. Nothing to worry about. The (daft) removal of the pre 1997 exemption seems only to apply to "new" imports. Just follow the normal reporting procedure when you arrive in the UK. Almost certainly better off trying to sell the boat in the UK.

Suggest you talk to the RYA about a "definitive statement" although suspect you may not get much because the whole implementation of certification has been a mess and CE marks are still accepted for used boats until the end of the year.

Selling the boat in France would definitely not require any certification. The EU will only apply that to "new" imports (with the exemption) Your boat is currently an "EU" boat and is just like any other old EU boat which has free circulation and can be sold anywhere in the EU without any restrictions (although some buyers may be wary of it!).

Just to add a positive. If you do come back to the UK with it as well as becoming a "UK" boat it will also remain an EU boat provided you return it to the EU within 3 years under their RGR rules! Probably not of much value as once you sell it that is lost.

 

[lustyd]

Doesn’t RGR only apply to residents?

 

[John H]

lustyd - sorry if not clear - we are resident in the UK.

Tranona - many thanks for your helpful reply. Can I follow up on your comment about almost certainly better off trying to sell in UK - is that because a Westerly Fulmar will be better known here and in more demand, or higher expected price, or other factors?

 

[st599]

The new regulations put the onus on you as the importer to prove the boat meets the current regs:

If a private importer imports a product that has not previously been placed on the GB market, where the manufacturer has not carried out the relevant conformity assessment procedure, the private importer will have to carry out a post construction assessment to demonstrate conformity with the Regulations, as set out in Schedule 5.
Recreational Craft Regulations 2017: Great Britain

 

[John H]

However this boat has previously been placed on the GB market - we bought it second hand here in England, and the original sale was also in England. So am I right in thinking that we are OK in that respect?

Also - are we actually "importing" or merely "returning"? The definition of what counts as an import seems unclear to me. Tranona suggested that as RGR applies we are not importing ..

 

[Tranona]

However this boat has previously been placed on the GB market - we bought it second hand here in England, and the original sale was also in England. So am I right in thinking that we are OK in that respect?

Also - are we actually "importing" or merely "returning"? The definition of what counts as an import seems unclear to me. Tranona suggested that as RGR applies we are not importing ..

RGR has been in existence for almost 30 years and has worked without any real problems even for long term cruisers who exceeded the nominal 3 years. The requirement to certify dates from 1997 when all new imports needed to meet the then EU RCD if coming from outside the EU. This did not apply to boats returning under RGR (or Returning Resident Relief). Nothing has changed in principle since Brexit, except the exemption for pre 1997 EEA built boats from outside the UK if they are "new" imports. In reality because of this and VAT the number of boats it is likely to affect will be small because such movements become uneconomic.
Pretty sure my reading of the position is correct, but rYA and Cruising Association are probably the best sources for help.

 

[Tranona]

lustyd - sorry if not clear - we are resident in the UK.

Tranona - many thanks for your helpful reply. Can I follow up on your comment about almost certainly better off trying to sell in UK - is that because a Westerly Fulmar will be better known here and in more demand, or higher expected price, or other factors?

I have recently had exchanges with somebody contemplating buying a Fulmar in Spain. Eligible for RGR so would have to be brought back by the current owner (or still in his ownership) and the deal done in UK. Not an attractive boat for the Med and not getting much interest from EU buyers. His reason for looking at it was because there is a real shortage of good Fulmars here (emphasis on the good!) Encouragingly he had lots of enquiries about the process for bringing the boat back under RGR and no mention was made of certification, only the need to ensure that it cleared customs in the name of the current owner.

So, yes, without a doubt you will find it easier to sell here and the price is likely to be higher and far less hassle. So take a holiday, sail it back and get it well prepared and you should have no trouble selling it. Concerto who posts here regularly is the forum Fulmar guru.

 

[Concerto]

lustyd - sorry if not clear - we are resident in the UK.

Tranona - many thanks for your helpful reply. Can I follow up on your comment about almost certainly better off trying to sell in UK - is that because a Westerly Fulmar will be better known here and in more demand, or higher expected price, or other factors?

As Tranona has said you should have no problems in returning your Fulmar to the UK as RGR.

You will certainly get a better price for a Fulmar in the UK. Currently I know of someone who is looking for a twin keel Fulmar in good condition, so with your current number of posts you should be able to send me a Private Message with some details and photos that I could pass on to him.

If you check out My About me page you will see I am a Fulmar owner and a WOA BoatLine member for the Fulmar.

 

[Concerto]

I have recently had exchanges with somebody contemplating buying a Fulmar in Spain. Eligible for RGR so would have to be brought back by the current owner (or still in his ownership) and the deal done in UK. Not an attractive boat for the Med and not getting much interest from EU buyers. His reason for looking at it was because there is a real shortage of good Fulmars here (emphasis on the good!)

So, yes, without a doubt you will find it easier to sell here and the price is likely to be higher and far less hassle. So take a holiday, sail it back and get it well prepared and you should have no trouble selling it. Concerto who posts here regularly is the forum Fulmar guru.

Just posted. Thanks for the good comment.

 

[lustyd]

lustyd - sorry if not clear - we are resident in the UK.

Tranona - many thanks for your helpful reply. Can I follow up on your comment about almost certainly better off trying to sell in UK - is that because a Westerly Fulmar will be better known here and in more demand, or higher expected price, or other factors?

It was clear I was responding to Tranona who said you could then take it back to EU under RGR.

 

[Tranona]

It was clear I was responding to Tranona who said you could then take it back to EU under RGR.

In which case you are wrong. Residence is irrelevant. It is only the EU VAT status of the boat that matters, not the owner, skipper or flag of registry. Plenty of UK residents own EU boats and may want to do what the OP intends but still return to the EU perhaps to sell the boat. Or for example sail from Greece to Turkey with their EU boat and return to base in Greece.

 

[lustyd]

In which case you are wrong.

I wasn’t wrong I was asking a question.

 

[Tranona]

I wasn’t wrong I was asking a question.

OK but the answer is still no.

 

[lustyd]

OK but the answer is still no.

Yes, I got that from your reply. Thanks for re-clarifying.