Reconditioned a legal term?

[Tranona]

Errrrr ........ that's a bit of a curve ball.

I said yesterday that I agreed with Tranona's post #2 but T seems to have changed his thinking so now I don't.

Richard

Not really changed. My first post raised this possibility.

All I am suggesting is how to go about using misrepresentation (rather than CRA/SOGA) and potting himself in a position to make a good case to the court if he wants to go that route. As I said the details of how he presents it depends on the facts. That is what he finds when the engine is stripped.

 

[solent clown]

unless the shop that carries out the reconditioning of an engine specifies what that means - usually if they are in the practice of selling reconditioned assemblies as the main part of their business, it is a very grey area. One we deal with on almost all out bread and butter day jobs. We build vehicles for various customers and purposes from the film industry to tour companies, and private individuals. Reconditioning can mean different things to different people, so we always to to make it clear that a basic "recon" is the making good of an assembly to a serviceable condition. In that instance you could almost interchange the word recon with repair. There is a scale that should be clear to both client and engineer. For instance, we may do a basic recon on a customers engine if he provided one for the build, which would involve, as described, making good what may be amiss, and a good service. On the other hand, on a movie set where time is money, and there are huge penalties for down filming time due to mechanical failure the word has a whole different meaning. It means make it as good as new, replace everything - it will be alright never is. That is nearer to a rebuild. People confuse the subtleties of these distinctions, I have lost count of the amount of customers who have presented me with a donor vehicle with a "recon" engine that was a bag of nails over the past couple of decades.

 

[PaulRainbow]

I'll say it again, the chance of a county court claim being successful is zero, dad, zilch, fur call.

I'd also say the chances that it's knackered beyond economic repair is also close to zero. A new lump is 12 grand, that's a lot of repair work. On the bench, this thing is going to take half a day to reduce to a pile of nuts and bolts. If it needs a lot of cleaning and rust removal it might take a couple of days, let's allow a few tea breaks at the OPs expense and call it three days. That ain't a fortune in labour, unless your mechanic is charging silly money.

Parts wise, all new gaskets and seals, maybe a new turbo. Crank should have survived, but if it's as rusty as a horse shoe a shot blast and grind, with new shells, and it's as good as new. Bores will almost certainly hone, add some rings and they're also nearly as good as new, maybe they won't even need rings. Hard to imagine much wrong with the top end, a good clean, grind the valves in, maybe. Starter and alternator away to be checked, same with the diesel pump and injectors.

A lot of that is worst case scenario, half of it will probably be OK. But if all of the above was done the engine would be practically as good as new, certainly far better than anything you'd buy second hand.

 

[solent clown]

I'll say it again, the chance of a county court claim being successful is zero, dad, zilch, fur call.

I'd also say the chances that it's knackered beyond economic repair is also close to zero. A new lump is 12 grand, that's a lot of repair work. On the bench, this thing is going to take half a day to reduce to a pile of nuts and bolts. If it needs a lot of cleaning and rust removal it might take a couple of days, let's allow a few tea breaks at the OPs expense and call it three days. That ain't a fortune in labour, unless your mechanic is charging silly money.

Parts wise, all new gaskets and seals, maybe a new turbo. Crank should have survived, but if it's as rusty as a horse shoe a shot blast and grind, with new shells, and it's as good as new. Bores will almost certainly hone, add some rings and they're also nearly as good as new, maybe they won't even need rings. Hard to imagine much wrong with the top end, a good clean, grind the valves in, maybe. Starter and alternator away to be checked, same with the diesel pump and injectors.

A lot of that is worst case scenario, half of it will probably be OK. But if all of the above was done the engine would be practically as good as new, certainly far better than anything you'd buy second hand.

Bang on. Best advice on here so far

 

[Tranona]

Before you could argue in court whether or not it had been "reconditioned" you'd have to ascertain a definition of that word when applied to an engine. In reality it has no specific meaning at all so you're on a hiding to nothing. Painting could be claimed to be "reconditioning" and if the purchaser chooses to assume it was some kind of mechanical work without checking on the detail that's up to him. "Rebuilding" is a bit different as it implies dismantling and reassembling but even then makes no implication on the extent of the rebuild or anything to do with the quality or condition of the rebuilt engine imo. I doubt it legally even implies making good, it merely says dismantled and reassembled. Reconditioning has no such implication of dismantling in my view.

As ever in a private sale, unless you can prove misrepresentation ("I fitted new pistons" but hadn't had the head off) or fraud (the pistons fitted were worn out) the only rule that applies is caveat emptor.

See post#48. There is plenty of material to construct a meaningful definition of "reconditioned" from the sources I suggested.

The dictionary definition "overhaul and refit" is a good start - "overhaul" Thorough examination with repairs if necessary makes very clear what is expected.

 

[PaulRainbow]

See post#48. There is plenty of material to construct a meaningful definition of "reconditioned" from the sources I suggested.

The dictionary definition "overhaul and refit" is a good start - "overhaul" Thorough examination with repairs if necessary makes very clear what is expected.

What if the seller says " you drove the boat away, running fine. You changed the transmission. One year later you removed the engine and found the bell housing to be full of sea water. That sea water could not have been in there for the journey home, neither could it have stayed in there during a transmission change. Therefor, i submit that you must have somehow allowed water into the engine."

Over to you your honor.

 

[sailaboutvic]

Dave you being steered in the wrong direction which suprise me from some people as normally their advise is good .
I think they are feeling sorry for you .

Call it a day get the engine fixed and move on .
You have no chance of winning this what ever your engineer say , my feeling is when push come to shove he will stay clear .
It's one year on and a lot could happen in a year to an engine .
As Paul said , he could easily say it was fine when you took it a year ago and he be in his right to do so .

The generator on my latest boat been playing me up , I was told by the last own he had a lot of work done on it , some of that work clearly hasn't , but like you one year on I be on a losing battle , and there no point.

 

[Malabarista]

I spent a not inconsiderable amount of money having the Volvo on my last boat lifted, repaired and re-fitted. Not much later on that season the water pump seals needed replacing and it turned out it was dumping coolant out of the exhaust :disgust:

thanks for that little Grebe. at least I am not alone

 

[solent clown]

Dave you being steered in the wrong direction which suprise me from some people as normally their advise is good .
I think they are feeling sorry for you .

Call it a day get the engine fixed and move on .
You have no chance of winning this what ever your engineer say , my feeling is when push come to shove he will stay clear .
It's one year on and a lot could happen in a year to an engine .
As Paul said , he could easily say it was fine when you took it a year ago and he be in his right to do so .

The generator on my latest boat been playing me up , I was told by the last own he had a lot of work done on it , some of that work clearly hasn't , but like you one year on I be on a losing battle , and there no point.

another bit of fantastic real world advice. A long protracted and probably fruitless battle might turn you off the boat, and ruin your whole experience. If you love the boat, and want to move on, then dont colour your experience with a losing battle. Take it is a learning exercise and move on. Forget the feeling of injustice, and focus your thoughts ahead, to sailing, enjoying the boat. Dont let it become a reminder every time you step on board of a mistake. Maybe get the engine stuck on a pallet and sent to a small independent engineer for a look. £40 should see that done. Someone on here will either be able to do it for you or recommend someone.

 

[Malabarista]

Good example Duncan .

There two side to every story and although I do feel for the OP but he had it surveyed or so he should had ,
If he has a problem he should be having it out with the surveyor , just because the broker listing say no damage ,
it doesn't mean it hasn't had any and been repaired .
I won't even go into what we spend on our lastest boat in the year we had it .
Come to think of it we don't know what he paid for it , for all any of us know it may had been well under the valve the boat worth .

good evening Sailaboutvic
I had a survey carried out at purchase but he believed the brokers documentation as did i. I am far from harassing the PO, in fact unless he is on this forum he will know nothing about it yet. when/if I do contact him it will be with a view to checking that he was not ripped off by a mechanic and if so what WE can do to put things right. I had knowledge (from this forum) that the boat had been in difficulties in the past. we were aware of the shortfalls in the general state of things aboard, much filth and generally unkempt, and this prompted our very low offer (again as advised on this forum) which was accepted after the obligatory toos and fros were over. so, yes I did pay a below valve price my purpose in posting here is to try and 'test the waters' a little to try and find out what my options are. I neither want to cause a problem for the PO or be made more of a muppet than is usual.
thanks for your valued input.

 

[PaulRainbow]

Just having a re-read............

After a year of toiling on the boring bits (after work and weekends) I finally got around to the engine. Looks very lovely on the outside but after removing the air filter i noticed that there was a significant amount of rust on the turbo blades.

You sure about the rust ? Turbo compressor wheels are usually alloy.

called in a marine engineer and together we looked around and came to the conclusion that the chances that this engine was ‘reconditioned in 2016’ ( as stated on the selling particulars) was virtually zero. So we hauled the engine out, put it on a test bench and it was thoroughly tested.

Why did you haul it out ? What was wrong with it, apart from the "rust" in the turbo ?

Upon removing the flywheel cover my marine engineer was soaked by rusty seawater

How could this be in there from before your buying the boat ? Water in the bell housing couldn't survive the journey home and certainly couldn't survive the transmission change.

every bolt and nut he attempted to undo was either seized or very evidently undisturbed in recent years it appears that no way has it been ‘reconditioned’.

I'd like to call "bollox" on this one. I fail to see how your "engineer" can tell the difference between a bolt that was correctly torqued up in 2011 (when the engine was built) and one that was correctly torqued up 18 months/2years ago.

I have been advised that the yanmar 4JH3TE engine is completely FUBARED and BER to boot.

I'm definitely wanting to call "bollox" on this one. If you do decide to replace the engine, can i have the scrap one please ? Nice little earner here

You definitely need someone independent to take a look at the engine. I wish i was closer than 130 miles away, or i'd happily come and take a look for gratis.

 

[Malabarista]

another bit of fantastic real world advice. A long protracted and probably fruitless battle might turn you off the boat, and ruin your whole experience. If you love the boat, and want to move on, then dont colour your experience with a losing battle. Take it is a learning exercise and move on. Forget the feeling of injustice, and focus your thoughts ahead, to sailing, enjoying the boat. Dont let it become a reminder every time you step on board of a mistake. Maybe get the engine stuck on a pallet and sent to a small independent engineer for a look. £40 should see that done. Someone on here will either be able to do it for you or recommend someone.

thanks Mr Clown (if I may be so bold) great advice. I am not really feeling bitter or vengeful about this engine just a little disappointed to have been (apparently) lied to. we were aware both before and after the survey that she was in a bit of a state and that was reflected in the price. however the one point in her favour was that at least the engine had been reconditioned that very same year.
ps £40 may be a little optimistic.

 

[solent clown]

dont send the engine my way, as much as i might love to help , but maybe check out Paul Rainbow above and have a think. As for pallet costs, get some quotes if you choose to move it, I might be able to help you do it cheaper, but dont forget shipley.

 

[Malabarista]

Just having a re-read............
'this is great stuff'



You sure about the rust ? Turbo compressor wheels are usually alloy.
'I have no idea but the blades were coated in a brown substance that in my hunched over torchlit vision looked like rust to me. I am in no way discounting the fact that I may have been wrong.'




Why did you haul it out ? What was wrong with it, apart from the "rust" in the turbo ?
'I was advised that in the engineers opinion it was unlikely to have been reconditioned in 2016. the engine mounts also needed replacing and bilge under the engine was full of flaky paint and a massive amount of carp. the decision to haul was made by me given these prompts.'



How could this be in there from before your buying the boat ? Water in the bell housing couldn't survive the journey home and certainly couldn't survive the transmission change.
'Again Paul I have no idea. I was called into a workshop and shown a large inverted bowl shaped object (can you tell I'm not a mechanic yet?) that was wet and extremely rusty with bright orange 'active' rust at one end of the engine. there was a large puddle of water that he explained had not come from the heat exchanger.
I may well have misdescribed what I was seeing as a bell housing. Although come to think of it I think he said the flywheel housing (if it's not the same thing)'



I'd like to call "bollox" on this one. I fail to see how your "engineer" can tell the difference between a bolt that was correctly torqued up in 2011 (when the engine was built) and one that was correctly torqued up 18 months/2years ago.

'The engine was built sometime in the mid eighties. the confusion has arisen because the boat was re-engined twice between 2011 and 2016 due to the boat being flooded twice. (I am including the recon as a re-engine ) the sale particulars had us down as buying a merc engine which was then changed to second hand yanmar 4jh3te and then was changed again to read recon yanmar 2016'



I'm definitely wanting to call "bollox" on this one. If you do decide to replace the engine, can i have the scrap one please ? Nice little earner here
due to your excellent advice no.

You definitely need someone independent to take a look at the engine. I wish i was closer than 130 miles away, or i'd happily come and take a look for gratis.

I have arranged today for that very thing to happen. I will be taking it to French marine for an appraisal and possible recon (careful!), rebuild, cleanup and examination.
I am really grateful that folks like you take the time to help folks like me. the value of this forum is such that others, both sellers and buyers can read stuff like this and maybe help themselves not to fall into the pitfalls that are a big part of trying to enter a world of which some of us may know little about. thanks mate.

 

[PaulRainbow]

Almost got the hang of the quotes

'I have no idea but the blades were coated in a brown substance that in my hunched over torchlit vision looked like rust to me. I am in no way discounting the fact that I may have been wrong.'

99.9999999999% your turbo gubbins is ally. May have looked rusty if it was damp in there. ????

'I was advised that in the engineers opinion it was unlikely to have been reconditioned in 2016. the engine mounts also needed replacing and bilge under the engine was full of flaky paint and a massive amount of carp. the decision to haul was made by me given these prompts.'

You wouldn't normally lift the engine out for new mounts or carp under the engine. If the engine was suspect, that's a different matter. It may prove to have been a good choice, but i'm still a little puzzled, as nowhere have you said the engine was showing signs of a problem.

I may well have misdescribed what I was seeing as a bell housing. Although come to think of it I think he said the flywheel housing (if it's not the same thing)'

Bell housing, flywheel housing, bowl shaped object, all the same thing

Still a bit odd that it was full of water, i dare say all will become clear soon.

The engine was built sometime in the mid eighties. the confusion has arisen because the boat was re-engined twice between 2011 and 2016 due to the boat being flooded twice. (I am including the recon as a re-engine ) the sale particulars had us down as buying a merc engine which was then changed to second hand yanmar 4jh3te and then was changed again to read recon yanmar 2016'

Ah, is see. She most likely had a Merc OM636. A good engine and also hard to kill off with a flooding, but at 42BHP i'd say a little under powered for your boat. The Yanmar should be a better beast, once it's sorted.

due to your excellent advice no.

Damn, there goes my earner

I have arranged today for that very thing to happen. I will be taking it to French marine for an appraisal and possible recon (careful!), rebuild, cleanup and examination.
I am really grateful that folks like you take the time to help folks like me. the value of this forum is such that others, both sellers and buyers can read stuff like this and maybe help themselves not to fall into the pitfalls that are a big part of trying to enter a world of which some of us may know little about. thanks mate.

Your welcome, it's a better use of time being here than watching Eastenders

I hope it all goes well for you and it doesn't need too much work. Be sure to post back and let us all know how it goes :encouragement:

 

[oldharry]

I agree with Solentclown. Lifes a pig sometimes, but I strongly suspect any approach to the vendor this far on will earn a simple anglo saxon request to er, go away.

If you pursue it you could expect to be accused of having abused the engine in the 12months you have had it,. How would you prove to a court it hasnt had several hundred hours use? That it was properly laid up? the rust on the turbo would be pointed to immediately showing you didnt protect it properly with a fogging spray, and taped up orifiices (unless you did and can prove it). At the end of the day it would be you and your engineers opinion that it wasnt 'reconditioned' against whatever evidence the vendor might produce, such as a mechanic who has worked on it and left it in good working order. And so on.... Tough, but I dont think you have much hope of a claim at this distance without a VERY clever (and expensive!) lawyer, and as Solent Clown says, it could easily put you off the whole boat anyway.

 

[sailaboutvic]

good evening Sailaboutvic
I had a survey carried out at purchase but he believed the brokers documentation as did i. I am far from harassing the PO, in fact unless he is on this forum he will know nothing about it yet. when/if I do contact him it will be with a view to checking that he was not ripped off by a mechanic and if so what WE can do to put things right. I had knowledge (from this forum) that the boat had been in difficulties in the past. we were aware of the shortfalls in the general state of things aboard, much filth and generally unkempt, and this prompted our very low offer (again as advised on this forum) which was accepted after the obligatory toos and fros were over. so, yes I did pay a below valve price my purpose in posting here is to try and 'test the waters' a little to try and find out what my options are. I neither want to cause a problem for the PO or be made more of a muppet than is usual.
thanks for your valued input.

You paid you surveyor good money to do a job , if anyone at fault it's him , it's his job to survey NOT to believe what broker or anyone else tells him , although I have to say , when it comes to engines gearbox , your wasting your money , as far as most surveyor goes , if the engine run and no tell tails or noise then it must be ok , they don't do compression test or oil test I suppose the same goes for mast , I never seen a surveyor go up a mast yet .
When I sold my last boat I advertise it and sold it on the condition that everything worked and on completion any thing that didn't I would put right at my own cost ,
The new owner and I have become good friends and he know if he as a problem I help him out in what ever way I can .

Lesson to be learned here , if you buy a cheap boat expect to have to spend money on it .

how many time we read here about how much to offer when viewing a boat ,
well all I can say is if a seller is willing to accept a low offer he must know some thing your going to find out once it's to late .

 

[superheat6k]

Having studied this thread and as a Remanufacturer in my professional life, I abhor situations where a claim is made when the claimant cannot show he has himself acted correctly. In this case this is a private sale without any form of warranty.

Looking at your comments and answers you do seem to profess to have little experience of engines, yet seek to lay blame at the door of a former service provider with whom you hold no contract, and as far as I can see the person who may have held such a contract likely made the statement he did in good faith. That being the case I see you have no where to go on this. After all he can show the engine neatly painted and out of the boat. What more is he obliged to do to refute your sole possible claim that he has misled you ?

Worse for you is the possible concern that if it were me in the POs position, I would certainly raise is your own negligence towards your own interests.

You seem to have left this engine to its own devices for a prolonged period, assuming this to be OK solely because you understood it had been re-conditioned, whatever that may have meant. I can give you a definition we use for remanufacturing (refrigeration compressors), but as explained reconditioning is so vague as to be a worthless statement.

As PaulRainbow has so eloquently set out it is highly unlikely the engine would have got past the marina entrance with the problems now alleged, let alone ~ 100 miles along the coast, yet you have since had the gearbox off yourself. How can you possibly show beyond 'balance of probability' that this seawater that has entered had done so prior to your now extended watch. You certainly do not seem to be able to show you properly de-commissioned the engine for a prolonged period of non use (e.g. winterised), indeed you have muted you did nothing at all in this regard, but you have simply relied upon the fact it was stated as reconditioned.

Devil's advocate could also suggest it could be the case you simply noted this word reconditioned and thought 'Ah Ha - now someone else can pay'...(for my lack of due diligence at purchase and since).

If I were the PO being approached on this with you intimating you are going to sue me I would definitely not wish to discuss anything with you, beyond clearly and politely explaining you saw the boat, you inspected the boat and you accepted the boat. Now please go away and do not waste anymore of my time.

I apologise if this seems hard for you, but ignorance of the boats we own and their intricate systems and devices is no fair reason for holding others liable when things go awry. In this regard welcome to the world of boat ownership.

This all said, I would divert your efforts to fixing the engine, and get involved in doing this yourself, as you will learn a lot, and can apply this knowledge the next time you go to purchase. If I can provide any advice on recovering a wet engine I am happy to do so,


(Oh yes as long as you sign a disclaimer that you won't sue me if you consider my advice flawed in 18 months time !)

 

[Hoolie]

We had the raw-water anti-syphon valve fail and over the winter, water syphoned through the exhaust manifold, then into the engine. I naively tried to start the engine without checking and soon discovered there were 5 or 6 litres of seawater in the sump!

No doubt it would have cost £k's to get an engineer to sort it but I did it myself. I took the head off, fearing the gasket was knackered, checked the pistons, conrods for bending etc . I suppose we were lucky as there were no damaged parts. So, for the cost of a complete gasket set, an engine manual off eBay, a precautionary skim to the cylinder head and some flushing oil I had a de-coked "re-conditioned" engine that didn't smoke like it used to. Total cost about £150 and a few weeks effort.

Why not have a go yourself. Diesel engines, at least of a certain era, are not rocket science.

Following the later comment by nemodreams, I should add that my engine is a 4-cylinder 2-litre Perkins Prima M50

 

[nemodreams]

I am very intrigued as to the actual state of this engine - having read through all this !

I was about to post a 'fishy' quiery of your friendly 'engineer' and his actual motives ?
You will get an honest appraisal from French Marnine - good outfit.

The various opinions about redess for private sales has been an intersting read !