Realistically, how much trouble will I actually be in?

[PhillM]

Thinking ahead here, sometime in the future I plan to x-channel. Boat was built in 1961 Isle of Wight and is obviously made pre the VAT date. She is 25’ wooden and I don’t think would be deemed to be worth much in monetary terms.
I have nothing to prove exactly when she was built nor can I prove where she was moored on the appropriate date to give VAT except status.

The bill of sale is a print out from EBay + an unsigned letter stating the particulars of buyer and seller.
I do have part 3 SSR and current insurance etc.

From practical experience, am I going to be in trouble with the authorities or don’t they care too much about obvious older boats and their VAT status?

 

[vyv_cox]

My 1985 boat has been in EU, not in UK, since 1997. I have never once been asked to show anything to do with VAT, cruising between Denmark and Greece.

 

[macd]

I've had the same European experience, or lack of it, as Vyv. However I was once visited by a rib-full of black-clad military types whilst at anchor in the Scillies.
"Sorry to bother you. Gordon's asked us to check yachts for VAT."
"She's too old for VAT," I told them.
Righto, have a good day," they replied, and motored back to their mother ship without any suggestion of my proving what I'd said.

Even if you were 'caught' in France (improbably though that is), all the French authorities could do with a UK-flagged vessel skippered by a UK resident is refer back to the UK Excise, which would in all likelihood give you the same amount of grief as they have so far: presumably, none.

 

[PhillM]

Thanks guys, that's reassuring to hear.

 

[jonic]

With the age and size of the boat you are highly unlikely to be bothered on the VAT front.

 

[eclipsesailing]

None, I should think

My understanding of the law on VAT is that 1) Boats over 25 years are outside the regulations. BUT anyway 2) it is only potentially payable when taking a boat into the EU not from country to country within the EU.
You can take a boat in and out of the EU as much as you like but if you sell it while it is out and the new owner brings it in the new owner might have to pay. So if you're doing jollies within the EU I don't see you having a problem.
Charlotte Glascock www.eclipsesailing.gr

 

[chubby]

I have a 1979 boat and never had any trouble, if your boat looks suitably old I would be most surprised if anyone bothered you re VAT, just have the original registration docs and insurance etc

 

[LittleSister]

I have a 1979 boat and never had any trouble, if your boat looks suitably old I would be most surprised if anyone bothered you re VAT, just have the original registration docs and insurance etc

Likewise, never been asked on numerous visits in smaller, older boats.

 

[Tranona]

Nobody will be in the lest bit interested. French customs have no jurisdiction over your boat for VAT if it was bought in UK. Follow the RYA guidance on documentation and like 000's of other British yachts you can move freely all over Europe (and elsewhere if you fancy).

 

[jonic]

French customs have no jurisdiction over your boat for VAT if it was bought in UK. Follow the RYA guidance on documentation and like 000's of other British yachts you can move freely all over Europe (and elsewhere if you fancy).

....except at the last VAT conference I attended we were told member states can now collect on behalf of each other. Whether they will or not, who knows but HMRC advised if stopped on those grounds to still to ask to be referred back to them for assistance. But in theory the other state could pursue it.

All fairly unlikely but its is a little disconcerting that it seems the mechanism now exists.

 

[BrianH]

....except at the last VAT conference I attended we were told member states can now collect on behalf of each other. Whether they will or not, who knows but HMRC advised if stopped on those grounds to still to ask to be referred back to them for assistance. But in theory the other state could pursue it.

All fairly unlikely but its is a little disconcerting that it seems the mechanism now exists.

Not unlikely at all. Croatia has publicised its intention to pursue it when it accedes to the union on the 1st July this year. It's why I won't be there on that date.

 

[jonic]

Not unlikely at all. Croatia has publicised its intention to pursue it when it accedes to the union on the 1st July this year. It's why I won't be there on that date.

Unlikely in the OPs case but disconcerting news for elsewhere.

 

[Koeketiene]

Thinking ahead here, sometime in the future I plan to x-channel. Boat was built in 1961 Isle of Wight and is obviously made pre the VAT date. She is 25’ wooden and I don’t think would be deemed to be worth much in monetary terms.

A boat that size and age: I don't think anyone is going to bother you -ever.
We've only been asked for proof of VAT once - three years ago. The hull had just been Awlgripped, new deck and new sails, so Douane (in France - Dieppe) thought she was new. The moment I showed them the paperwork which showed that she was actually built in 1984 they lost all interest and were off on their merry way.

 

[Tranona]

....except at the last VAT conference I attended we were told member states can now collect on behalf of each other. Whether they will or not, who knows but HMRC advised if stopped on those grounds to still to ask to be referred back to them for assistance. But in theory the other state could pursue it.

All fairly unlikely but its is a little disconcerting that it seems the mechanism now exists.

But only if there is a VAT liability whlch is impossible in the Ops case. The only situations where this might occur are related to imports from outside the EU. Even then it would be avery unusual set of circumstances where the liability was in one state and the asset or person responsible was in another. Bit of a hollow threat really.

 

[zzyyxx]

But only if there is a VAT liability whlch is impossible in the Ops case. The only situations where this might occur are related to imports from outside the EU. Even then it would be avery unusual set of circumstances where the liability was in one state and the asset or person responsible was in another. Bit of a hollow threat really.

I suppose the fear is that the Frogs think he's bought it in the channel islands, slapped a UK Ensign on it and sailed it to France thereby importing it into the EU?

 

[Koeketiene]

I suppose the fear is that the Frogs think he's bought it in the channel islands, slapped a UK Ensign on it and sailed it to France thereby importing it into the EU?

Even so the boat would be exempt by virtue of age. 1961 boat - VAT was only introduced in 1973.

 

[prv]

Even so the boat would be exempt by virtue of age. 1961 boat - VAT was only introduced in 1973.

Sure, but if you imported it more recently, would you not still be liable for VAT on that transaction? If I buy a 200 year old antique in a shop I still have to pay VAT.

Pete

 

[Otter]

Sure, but if you imported it more recently, would you not still be liable for VAT on that transaction? If I buy a 200 year old antique in a shop I still have to pay VAT.

Pete

I don't think you do?

 

[prv]

I don't think you do?

Fair question, I don't actually know for sure, but I thought I did. Assuming the shop is VAT registered, anyway. And obviously the VAT is included in the price, not itemised separately.

I know we have some people knowledgeable on VAT around - can anyone confirm if it would apply to buying stuff in an antiques shop?

Pete

 

[wotayottie]

Ignore the legal theorists - what matters here is the realpolitik. You are highly unlikely to have any problem at all since the last thing you will look like is a wealthy boat owner trying to dodge vat. In short you are not worth the time and effort of the customs man under any normal circumstances. And under normal circumstances they dont check anyone's VAT documents anyway.

I say normal circumstance because there are things which could trigger a problem. Not having the SSR available or passports - those are a must have and trigger a going over if not present. Customs man having had a blazing row with his wife / boss and wanting to make someone else's life miserable - they are human just like the rest of us. Planned reorganisation of the customs and officers feeling the need to show they are doing something - this actually happened some years back. But even then, life being what is is, they are more likely to create trouble for the wealthy owner of a big boat than for you.

So I would not worry at all. Just be aware that they can make life difficult so dont be unco-operative / stroppy. Be friendly and you wont have an issue.

Incidentally, UKBA or HMRC have the same ability to give you documentation problems but they wont.