Real Differences Between Mass Produced and Quality Yachts

Bav34 said:
And predictably you never were going to be.

My 1989 Westerly, motoring with a 18hp engine, used to go from 6 knots to stopped dead with water cascading all over the deck off HillHead (Southampton) in any sort of swell. Slammed so hard it was dangerous. I think you'll find the hull shape is the factor not the manufacturer. I think I might have just stated the obvious :rolleyes:
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Well how is your Bavaria 34??
 
It slams in conditions other boats with the same hull shape slam in.

That's most modern boats.

And of course my 1989 one.
 
Try this.

Fill a bowl with water.

Slam your hand into it, palm down. First of all simulating a heavy boat, then a lighter boat. Compare/contrast.

Now turn your hand through 90 degrees. Repeat.

You should now have the characteristics of a heavy flat bottomed boat, a lighter flat bottomed boat, a heavy v-shaped boat and a lighter v-shaped boat.

Go to a boatyard and compare/contrast hull shapes of the sort of boat you think you might buy. Scratch your head because as far as I can tell they all come out of the same mould. Consider respective weights. Consider if when falling off a wave instead of ploughing through it you will really notice a difference.

Note that every boat that I have been on has slammed at some stage ... that includes a 60 foot ex British Steel Challenge yacht on the way to The Fastnet Rock. Or was it 70 foot? I can't remember. But oh, we did get wet.

I doubt this answers your question but as I implied earlier I'd be surprised if you can ever get an answer on a forum. Only taking the boats of your choice out in identical weather will show you which one is best.

I guess not really the answer you want but I have lots of memories of lots of boats ... many thousands ... barreling around the Isle of Wight in quite challenging conditions and the only thoughts that stick in my mind are big is best, fastest is wettest.
 
Bav34 said:
Try this.

Fill a bowl with water.

Slam your hand into it, palm down. First of all simulating a heavy boat, then a lighter boat. Compare/contrast.

Now turn your hand through 90 degrees. Repeat.

You should now have the characteristics of a heavy flat bottomed boat, a lighter flat bottomed boat, a heavy v-shaped boat and a lighter v-shaped boat.

Go to a boatyard and compare/contrast hull shapes of the sort of boat you think you might buy. Scratch your head because as far as I can tell they all come out of the same mould. Consider respective weights. Consider if when falling off a wave instead of ploughing through it you will really notice a difference.

Note that every boat that I have been on has slammed at some stage ... that includes a 60 foot ex British Steel Challenge yacht on the way to The Fastnet Rock. Or was it 70 foot? I can't remember. But oh, we did get wet.

I doubt this answers your question but as I implied earlier I'd be surprised if you can ever get an answer on a forum. Only taking the boats of your choice out in identical weather will show you which one is best.

I guess not really the answer you want but I have lots of memories of lots of boats ... many thousands ... barreling around the Isle of Wight in quite challenging conditions and the only thoughts that stick in my mind are big is best, fastest is wettest.
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Thanks for that. Actually if there was any definitive answer then it would be boring!!
 
Bav34 said:
Fill a bowl with water.

Slam your hand into it, palm down. First of all simulating a heavy boat, then a lighter boat. Compare/contrast.

Now turn your hand through 90 degrees. Repeat.

You should now have the characteristics of a heavy flat bottomed boat, a lighter flat bottomed boat, a heavy v-shaped boat and a lighter v-shaped boat.
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Great analogy!
 
Daydream believer said:
No of course it does not. We all cut our cloth to suit
All i wondered was - Is it cheaper to run an expensive boat than a cheaper one
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I suspect that size-for-size there probably isn't much in it, or doesn't have to be. However, someone who had he cash to buy a new boat the size of mine probably wouldn't do as much rummaging round boat jumbles and chandlers' bargain bins as I do ...
 
V shaped hulls when heeled, slam worse than U shaped ones. The reason being, a large relatively flat area is presented to the water surface. That was the explanation in an article by Olin Stevens, who ought to know!
 
JumbleDuck said:
I suspect that size-for-size there probably isn't much in it, or doesn't have to be. However, someone who had he cash to buy a new boat the size of mine probably wouldn't do as much rummaging round boat jumbles and chandlers' bargain bins as I do ...
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Don't count on it, many people have the cash because they're tight with it.
 
michael_w said:
V shaped hulls when heeled, slam worse than U shaped ones. The reason being, a large relatively flat area is presented to the water surface. That was the explanation in an article by Olin Stevens, who ought to know!
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Yes, lots of people talking about flat bottoms regarding slamming but what counts is not the hull back section fut the bow section and that one while heeled.
This is the shape of bow of a modern boat with very good upwind performance, It is a relatively beamy boat with 3,90m for 12.50. Looking at the bow we can see how it works if we consider it hitting the water at 25/25º.
Comet_zps797e2d4d.jpg

More slow older designed cruisers even with a lot less beam tend to have much less fine water entries at the bow and that means that they will slam more even if the overall hull is a lot less flatter, specially the aft sections.
 
Polux said:
Yes, lots of people talking about flat bottoms regarding slamming but what counts is not the hull back section fut the bow section and that one while heeled.

More slow older designed cruisers even with a lot less beam tend to have much less fine water entries at the bow and that means that they will slam more even if the overall hull is a lot less flatter, specially the aft sections.
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You're right and both of these facts are accepted by the manufacturers of so called "quality" brands, which is why they are moving in the direction of best of breed AWB cruisers and not the other way!

That said the "AWB label" is a completely ridiculous concept as it encompasses everything from the RM1070 to the Beneteau Sense range. As pointed out in post #189, many peeps have fallen into the habit of using the "AWB label" to "logically" conclude that each so labelled boat shares the adverse properties we “know” are associated with other boats sharing the AWB label, of which slamming is a perfect example.

The attraction is that you simply needs to stick the AWB label on any boat you don't like and away you go. Facts cannot get in the way from here on in as the "labellers" have no doubt that they simply get in the way of the truth!
 
dom said:
You're right and both of these facts are accepted by the manufacturers of so called "quality" brands, which is why they are moving in the direction of best of breed AWB cruisers and not the other way!

That said the "AWB label" is a completely ridiculous concept as it encompasses everything from the RM1070 to the Beneteau Sense range. As pointed out in post #189, many peeps have fallen into the habit of using the "AWB label" to "logically" conclude that each so labelled boat shares the adverse properties we “know” are associated with other boats sharing the AWB label, of which slamming is a perfect example.

The attraction is that you simply needs to stick the AWB label on any boat you don't like and away you go. Facts cannot get in the way from here on in as the "labellers" have no doubt that they simply get in the way of the truth!
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Dom, I like the cut of your jib! I guess the the clue is in the name, 'Average'... Not meaning bad... however there are probably more AWB's now, so can they really be construed as 'average'? ;-) As an aside, the dictionary meaning of 'average' is:

"a list of numbers divided by the size of the list, in other words the arithmetic mean. However, the word "average" can be used to refer to the median, the mode, or some other central or typical value."

In our case "a list of boats divided by the size of the list, in other words the arithmetic mean". Which now implies that if we place all the boats built currently on the 'list' and then apply the 'average' rule, surely the likes of a HR would also be an AWB?

Breizh.
 
Breizh said:
In our case "a list of boats divided by the size of the list, in other words the arithmetic mean". Which now implies that if we place all the boats built currently on the 'list' and then apply the 'average' rule, surely the likes of a HR would also be an AWB?
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Love the Euclidean proof :)

But you must be aware of the limitations of facts in what is essentially a debate on religion and prejudice ;)
 
Aha we are getting somewhere.

So what we need is a fast boat that can be loaded up for cruising and doesn't slam??

Any offers??
 
LP1 said:
Thanks for that, it really clears things up for me, I am much wiser now and grateful for the input.

No really, I am. Have a great New Year dude.
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Did no-one spot the sarcasm? I thought forums were for help. I am showing my ignorance here, but enlighten me PLEASE!
 
dom said:
Love the Euclidean proof :)

But you must be aware of the limitations of facts in what is essentially a debate on religion and prejudice ;)
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Ah yes, I realize that facts don't mean a jot in a debate such as this, but one must try to nudge the discussion along in some factual fashion...:o

Breizh.
 
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