Real Differences Between Mass Produced and Quality Yachts

[Koeketiene]

Ok so for those of you who have bought a 15 year old malo/hr etc what have you spent replacing worn out stuff :

Bought a 22 year old Kalik 44 for 75K. (the boat is often mistaken for an HR - in fact, if I had a quid for every time someone asked me: 'Is that an HR?', I could probably afford an HR).

Over the last five years, we replaced: teak deck, standing and running rigging, sails, engine and all the electronics/electrics.
In addition we have added (or are in the process of adding): hull resprayed, bottom Coppercoated, windvane selfsteering, electric windlass, keel-cooled fridge, SSB and Iridium kit.
All of this adds up to another 75K.

If I wanted to buy a similar boat (size, specs, build quality) new, i would be looking at 350-400K, at least.
You could expect to get about 20 years of problem free (nothing major) sailing from a new HR. I am confident, we'll get 20 years of problem free sailing out of ours.

 

[GrahamM376]

I looked at the AZAB results for 2011 - X362, Sigma 36??

ARC 2008 - Beneteau 31.7, Dehler 36, Elan 37, Grand Soleil 37, Hanse 370, X372

What I meant was not going to the Med forever! Just a possible trip for a season or 2. Will mostly be used in the UK for cruising and racing with the idea that if a Med trip or Atlantic circuit was possible time wise it would be possible with the same boat.

What do I need??!!

Any boat can go anywhere given the right conditions and suitable crew. The Med can be a punishing place for boats and crew. For long passages short or single handed, you need something which will take continued punishment when necessary and doesn't bounce you around leaving you knackered. A friend lives aboard his fairly lightweight cruiser <35ft and has had keel support, chainplates and rudder damage on different occasions by sailing or being caught out in unsuitable conditions. He's also been hurt on a couple of occasions when thrown around.

 

[roblpm]

Any boat can go anywhere given the right conditions and suitable crew. The Med can be a punishing place for boats and crew. For long passages short or single handed, you need something which will take continued punishment when necessary and doesn't bounce you around leaving you knackered. A friend lives aboard his fairly lightweight cruiser <35ft and has had keel support, chainplates and rudder damage on different occasions by sailing or being caught out in unsuitable conditions. He's also been hurt on a couple of occasions when thrown around.

OK I get that, but I wont be living aboard, will check the weather, and this wont be the primary purpose of the boat.

 

[roblpm]

Bought a 22 year old Kalik 44 for 75K. (the boat is often mistaken for an HR - in fact, if I had a quid for every time someone asked me: 'Is that an HR?', I could probably afford an HR).

Over the last five years, we replaced: teak deck, standing and running rigging, sails, engine and all the electronics/electrics.
In addition we have added (or are in the process of adding): hull resprayed, bottom Coppercoated, windvane selfsteering, electric windlass, keel-cooled fridge, SSB and Iridium kit.
All of this adds up to another 75K.

If I wanted to buy a similar boat (size, specs, build quality) new, i would be looking at 350-400K, at least.
You could expect to get about 20 years of problem free (nothing major) sailing from a new HR. I am confident, we'll get 20 years of problem free sailing out of ours.

Sounds brilliant. Unfortunately I can't do that! I don't mind doing bits but I am in to going places not a major project. Obviously I will do maintenance / improvements etc. While I am working I wont have time. When I chuck it in I am out of here!!

 

[Tranona]

What I meant was not going to the Med forever! Just a possible trip for a season or 2. Will mostly be used in the UK for cruising and racing with the idea that if a Med trip or Atlantic circuit was possible time wise it would be possible with the same boat.

What do I need??!!

This is a very different question from your original post.

The answer is very simple. Buy a boat that you like that meets your main need. You can construct arguments for all kinds of boats, old, new, "quality", mass produced etc. Set yourself a budget and some basic criteria then you will find your short list comes up very quickly. Boats are very personal things and while the choice others make is interesting, it is you that has to live with the boat.

As Graham says, most 35-40' modern boat will do what you want, although the racing requirement may eliminate some of the more staid designs. Coping with long distance sailing is more about equipping the boat and your own ability rather than the fundamental design of the boat - as you have already found by looking at the types of boats others have chosen.

 

[GrahamM376]

OK I get that, but I wont be living aboard, will check the weather, and this wont be the primary purpose of the boat.

That doesn't quite tie up with "So the plan has to be 35ft cruiser racer for club racing, med and Caribbean"

Just how will you be getting to the Med & Caribbean? Where will you be living while doing these trips?

 

[roblpm]

This is a very different question from your original post.

The answer is very simple. Buy a boat that you like that meets your main need. You can construct arguments for all kinds of boats, old, new, "quality", mass produced etc. Set yourself a budget and some basic criteria then you will find your short list comes up very quickly. Boats are very personal things and while the choice others make is interesting, it is you that has to live with the boat.

As Graham says, most 35-40' modern boat will do what you want, although the racing requirement may eliminate some of the more staid designs. Coping with long distance sailing is more about equipping the boat and your own ability rather than the fundamental design of the boat - as you have already found by looking at the types of boats others have chosen.

Ok sorry for being inconsistent! But what I realise now is that I need 2 different boats at different times so the criteria changes slightly.

 

[roblpm]

That doesn't quite tie up with "So the plan has to be 35ft cruiser racer for club racing, med and Caribbean"

Just how will you be getting to the Med & Caribbean? Where will you be living while doing these trips?

In Edinburgh.

This is all pie in the sky obviously, which I thought was allowed on here!!

So here goes:

Negotiate more time off at work (own business so shouldn't be too hard).

One summer sail to Portugal.
Get 9 month contract there. As many 2 week holidays as possible.
One August sail to canaries. Fly back.
As many 2 week holidays for a year as possible.
Cross to Caribbean in Dec / Jan. Fly back
Some holidays.
Next winter sail back.

Now there are probably plenty of reasons why this doesn't work but until I can ditch work its as good as it gets.

 

[dom]

Could it be that three simple misconceptions help fuel this never-ending argument?

1. “Label logic”: all of us like to imagine that we make decisions based upon higher order logic, a process which requires us to sift through formidable amounts of new information. Unfortunately this approach is so hungry for processing power that we need a system of shortcuts to avoid mental overload. One example is reflexes, where we might unthinkingly drop a hot potato. Another is to stick a convenient label on things; a label which allows us to logically conclude that each so labelled item shares the properties we “know” are associated with other items sharing the same label.

I might for example “know” that all Irishmen are binge drinkers; if I meet a Dubliner called Patrick I may therefore “logically” deduce he is a binge drinker. Patrick may in turn claim to be a teetotaller and an argument would ensue. Psychologists have found that the vast majority of disagreements occur – not over facts, reflex actions, or higher order logic – but over learnt beliefs and “labels”, which we typically hold close to our hearts.

Wild assertions about the characteristics of certain boats based upon crude MAB/AWB labelling systems bring many Patricks out of the woodwork to argue their case, only to find that others know for sure that their “facts” are only getting in the way of the truth.

2. Who buys expensive yachts? The UK, and in particular London, is an international hub which prides itself on hosting niche money making activities, including a small part of the finance industry. Whenever people think of wealth they immediately think of luxury products such as $20,000+ Louis Vuitton handbags, Bvlgari watches, Rolls Royce motor cars and so on.

For some these are an expression of taste; for others tickets to a higher social class. Within the first category these purchases almost never make any difference whatsoever to the purchaser’s financial health. They are whimsical fancies and should they turn out to be good investments great, if not who cares. Sub-£5m boats very much fit into this category. If one wants a store of value buy a stock, a painting, an antique vase, not a yacht!

3. Fallacy of money at sea. Nobody seriously argues that a Cartier watch keeps time better than a Casio, or that a Christian Dior coat keeps you warmer than a Zara offering; the fancy brands are simply designed to project elegance, wealth and status. Luxury mobos and full-suss racing sailboats project a similar image in the context of a flashy marina.

On the other hand cruising boats of all types are designed to go to sea, a domain renowned for its disrespect of banded wares and social class. Here the old seadogs are kings, as they have been for centuries before; in much the same way tattily dressed Sherpas reign supreme over their nattily dressed foreign guests.

And this is precisely what attracts many wealthy people to the sea and other areas of natural wilderness. People who have achieved everything in life have a playground where money can buy basic commodities like fibreglass, Harken and Lewmar, but little more. A reliability vs. function tradeoff even exists for the fancier auto-pilots, etc. Those who argue that luxury brands bring additional safety to the table may also believe that luxury houses are constructed of “luxury bricks”, and nothing will disabuse them of their beliefs.

But these people represent a small minority, who have utterly missed the basic point that the sea is a special and beautiful place, where money can buy some things but not much; where we are all equal and where we must all depend on each other to survive.

 

[roblpm]

Very well put. And goes to the heart of my op (which graham and tranona think I have mucked up by changing the subject somewhat).

1. I was querying whether label logic was a good idea these days. CAD design and modern manufacturing methods hace surely changed the game.

2. Resale value is not uppermost in my mind. As i pointed out earlier tieing up 300k in order to reduce depreciation is not possible for me and actually not sensible i think.

3. I am sure a good sailor (not necessarily me!) on an awb that has been prepared and checked over properly is in a better place than a quality boat that is old and not adequately maintained.

 

[dom]

Very well put. And goes to the heart of my op (which graham and tranona think I have mucked up by changing the subject somewhat).

Your calm and polite OP was, believe it or not, where the problems started! See, you asked for the thread to be framed in terms of logic and data, a red rag to those who prefer the facts to be kept well out of sight.

So they decided to reframe your post; "I think HRs are an old farts' boat" exclaimed one, "Oh no they're not!" retorted another and off it went. Soon the thread attracted those participants who cannot resist such a melee, "Moodies and Oysters are sailed by known idiots" said one, "Bavarias are built from recycled toilet brushes" said the wannabe snobs, whose main focus is incidentally to find someone to look down upon. Up popped some sensible owners of said vessels, who like Tranona and Graham attempted to add some hard facts to the mix, facts which were soon drowned out by the noise.

Perhaps the message of Seasonal Cheer is to treat these threads in the manner of a gold prospector; a quick shake of your sieve will remove most of the detritus, and what you have left could be well, well worth having

 

[roblpm]

Your calm and polite OP was, believe it or not, where the problems started! See, you asked for the thread to be framed in terms of logic and data, a red rag to those who prefer the facts to be kept well out of sight.

So they decided to reframe your post; "I think HRs are an old farts' boat" exclaimed one, "Oh no they're not!" retorted another and off it went. Soon the thread attracted those participants who cannot resist such a melee, "Moodies and Oysters are sailed by known idiots" said one, "Bavarias are built from recycled toilet brushes" said the wannabe snobs, whose main focus is incidentally to find someone to look down upon. Up popped some sensible owners of said vessels, who like Tranona and Graham attempted to add some hard facts to the mix, facts which were soon drowned out by the noise.

Perhaps the message of Seasonal Cheer is to treat these threads in the manner of a gold prospector; a quick shake of your sieve will remove most of the detritus, and what you have left could be well, well worth having

I am treating every contribution as very welcome! What I haven't really managed to glean is:

a) Anything factual about hull strength/keel strength/rudder strength between expensive and mass produced brands.
b) Anything about hull shape differences between modern quality boats like a HR347/372 and the mass produced brands that the hull looks pretty much the same.

What I have gleaned as I said before is to realise that not all the qualities of the expensive brands are actually a positive to me at all, ie brand image (I drive a BMW, but preferred the 15 year old mondeo we just scrapped, awesome motor!), teak decks, mahogany interior. So it has been instructive to remind me as some reasonable people have said to go with budget, use, etc etc.

Happy Winter Solstice everyone!! It's at 23:03 here in Edinburgh apparently!

If I am in the UK for December and January in 5 years time I will have failed! Can't stand living in the dark!!!!

 

[Bobc]

Those who argue that luxury brands bring additional safety to the table may also believe that luxury houses are constructed of “luxury bricks”, and nothing will disabuse them of their beliefs.

Luxury bricks. That's brilliant!

 

[GrahamM376]

(I drive a BMW, but preferred the 15 year old mondeo we just scrapped, awesome motor!)

Funny that, my last BMW was an M5 but my all time favourite "good all rounder" was a Sierra 2.9 XR 4x4, did 250k miles in that until it fell apart

 

[Tranona]

Luxury bricks. That's brilliant!

Don't laugh! Such things exist - hand made, slightly wavy round the edges, but the product of real craftmanship.

 

[pvb]

Don't laugh! Such things exist - hand made, slightly wavy round the edges, but the product of real craftmanship.

Do they make HRs out of them? Or maybe truly expensive boats, like the GT35?

 

[Elessar]

At risk of alienating some traditionalists I would like people's opinions on what is the real difference between say a Bavaria Cruiser 33 and a Hallbergh Rassy 342.

I will find the prices later but I think it may be 3 to 1.

When I compare on sailcalc the displacement etc are pretty similar.

So here we go:

Mahogony interior............... I don't want one!!!
Lead keel .......................... Maybe an option on some AWBs?
Tankage................. but I read that at least water ought to be kept in bottles for an ocean crossing due to potential contamination issues.
Fittings are the same??

So some of the difference in price must be from efficiencies in mass production.

In the good old days MABs had long keels, a seakindly motion etc. But to my unexpert eye a HR 342 or 372 is now medium displacement etc.

So why not buy an AWB for essentially its hull and upgrade it? Then you are starting new.

I just bought a 1994 boat and have probably spent 50% of its purchase price on new sails, prop, etc etc

So what is the best AWB hull??!!

The gelcoat is better on the bav than the rassey. The rasseys often have micro bubbles that appear as pin holes once the gelcoat is polished or worn. Machine mixed in bulk is better than hand mixed.

The bav is less likely to have poor lay up.

Unless you pay extra for the lead keel on the bav, it will probably rust quite quickly. They were available on at least some models but few people paid for it.

The rassey has a premium feel because of the wood. If that's what you want then nothing else will do. But it is only a feel.

The worst hull fault I ever found on a yacht was on a rassey. When we took the antifoul off there was a dreadfully bodged 8" hole that needed the repairing. The owner had had the boat from new, but didn't see it until it had been antifouled.

Only recently have the rasseys been bonding down the (lovely) teak decks. So they got perfectly good, waterproof decks and drilled holes in it. Hmmm......

 

[roblpm]

The gelcoat is better on the bav than the rassey. The rasseys often have micro bubbles that appear as pin holes once the gelcoat is polished or worn. Machine mixed in bulk is better than hand mixed.

The bav is less likely to have poor lay up.

Unless you pay extra for the lead keel on the bav, it will probably rust quite quickly. They were available on at least some models but few people paid for it.

The rassey has a premium feel because of the wood. If that's what you want then nothing else will do. But it is only a feel.

The worst hull fault I ever found on a yacht was on a rassey. When we took the antifoul off there was a dreadfully bodged 8" hole that needed the repairing. The owner had had the boat from new, but didn't see it until it had been antifouled.

Only recently have the rasseys been bonding down the (lovely) teak decks. So they got perfectly good, waterproof decks and drilled holes in it. Hmmm......

Yes I should have included lead keel in my previous post.

So for me:

Teak deck bad
Expensive mahogany interior bad
Lead keel good

 

[GrahamM376]

Don't laugh! Such things exist - hand made, slightly wavy round the edges, but the product of real craftmanship.

You can't get better plus, they are being laid by £1,000 per week bricklayers from Portugal - who actually use very few bricks as we know them

 

[Koeketiene]

I am treating every contribution as very welcome! What I haven't really managed to glean is:

a) Anything factual about hull strength/keel strength/rudder strength between expensive and mass produced brands.
b) Anything about hull shape differences between modern quality boats like a HR347/372 and the mass produced brands that the hull looks pretty much the same.

OK - what follows is purely my personal opinion, based on purely personal experience - it is not gospel.

Our previous boat was an AWB. Light displacement with a flat bottom and bolt-on keel. Also, deck-stepped mast and spade rudder.
We sailed her extensively over 5 years, in all kinds of weather, in the North Sea and the Channel area.
In that time we experienced plenty of slamming, pitching and at one point rig failure.
I also found that the spade rudder made she suffered from a fair bit of weather helm. You can argue that maybe I should pay more attention to sail trim (not my strongest suit), but crew is usually wife and kids. Frequent changes of sailplan are a no-no.
Things I all wanted to avoid in the next boat.

So, I wanted:
- skeg-hung rudder
- heavy displacement
- not a flat bottom with bolt-on keel
- keel-stepped mast

Arrived at this (apologies for the quality of the pictures - mobile phone).

I have found that hardly any of the AWB builders offer the options, which I deemed to be essential. If modern AWB builders did offer boats which met my criteria I would have bought one. Others will have other priorities.
For me the criteria were essential - not the badge. If it had been about the badge I certainly would not have bought a Kalik as no-one seems to have heard of the brand.