Real Differences Between Mass Produced and Quality Yachts

Light, strong and cheap, you can only have two of those. A saying that would make sense of why an HR might be lighter and stronger, but not cheaper. I know for a fact from the two dinghies that I own that the lightest versions (or most consistently to weight) are also the strongest. All down to the type of fibreglass used, how it is orientated and the resin. Even with polyester resin there are quite some differences.

If I really wanted the strongest boat I would have it in epoxy, but hardly anyone does that (I think Hanse made an epoxy range for a whilte).
 
rb_stretch said:
If I really wanted the strongest boat I would have it in epoxy, but hardly anyone does that (I think Hanse made an epoxy range for a whilte).
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I don't think the plastic makes much difference - replacing glass fibres with kevlar, carbon or (if you want to be really exotic) boron will have much greater effect, as will putting the fibres exactly where they are needed and in the right direction.
 
JumbleDuck said:
... as will putting the fibres exactly where they are needed and in the right direction.
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Bavaria work with Farr Yacht Design to generate computer analysed load patterns for their yacht hulls, then produce detailed laminate plans and specifications. The glass mat and rovings is then pre-cut to accurate shapes/orientation, ready for hand lay-up.
 
pvb said:
Bavaria work with Farr Yacht Design to generate computer analysed load patterns for their yacht hulls, then produce detailed laminate plans and specifications. The glass mat and rovings is then pre-cut to accurate shapes/orientation, ready for hand lay-up.
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That's one way that modern production techniques beat the pants off the bloke wandering round a shed with a roll of CSM, a bucket of resin and a paintbrush.
 
JumbleDuck said:
That's one way that modern production techniques beat the pants off the bloke wandering round a shed with a roll of CSM, a bucket of resin and a paintbrush.
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Even worse when a chopper gun was used. Wince every time i think about the mould shed in the yard where I worked which was built on the marsh alongside the river and had no heating other than the space heaters hired in when a hull was moulded! Fortunately the strength of the boat was in a massive fabricated Douglas Fir grid bonded into the bottom. The rest of the hull was mainly to keep the water out and look pretty.
 
Tranona said:
Even worse when a chopper gun was used. Wince every time i think about the mould shed in the yard where I worked which was built on the marsh alongside the river and had no heating other than the space heaters hired in when a hull was moulded! Fortunately the strength of the boat was in a massive fabricated Douglas Fir grid bonded into the bottom. The rest of the hull was mainly to keep the water out and look pretty.
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Think of it as ferrocement done with unnecessarily expensive materials ...
 
A number are quoting the HR as the " best quality" standard. However, no one has mentioned the case of the alleged failure of the laminate bonding of a 37 ft Halberg & comments that the community around the HR hull building site knew of a number of HR's with the same fault due - it is claimed- that HR bought a large batch of incorrectly specified resin
But there again Beneteau use fairly modern techniques & I know of one of their boats where the outer skin de bonded from the core & the owner had to fork out for considerable repairs.
Can anyone remember the Team Philips failure?
So the problem can happen across the spectrum
 
roblpm said:
Good point. I just chose HR as they have smaller boats. Allures minimum size is the 39.9 I think.

Also I really just chose it for a price / value comparison.

French slightly cheaper than Scandi? Ie RM, Ovni, Allures etc?

I want to be able to single hand a bit if necessary so am thinking 34-36 ft. So Amel etc too big.

Whats a smaller Amel equivalent?! Ovni 365? (which I think is 40 foot anyway!!)
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Unfortunately, from my last reports, Alubat had ceased production. However I've been aboard a couple and, from the owners' descriptions, they're well nigh indestructible. One dragged and spent a night banging on a coral reef - the only damage was to the anti-fouling - and Jimmy Cornell chose one for high-latitude cruising. I wouldn't give them high marks for single-handed cruising, speed under sail or stowage capacity, but definitely considerably stronger than any GRP boat.
The smallest Amel made was, from memory, the Santorin @ 14m - an early 90's build and quickly change hands @ around £100K when they come on the market. There are certain boats (not HR) which stay on sale for about 2 weeks before being snapped up - those by popular acclamation are the quality yachts of this world and (surprise, surprise) AWBs and the big Scandanavians don't figure.
Repair to the Amel hull is fairly difficult - it's a cored composite - but it needs a very hefty poke from a sharp object to hole it.
As with all other things there are cheap and expensive in any national manufacturer, on the whole, because of their relatively generous wage-rates you'll probably get less Value-for-money from the Scanadanavians, than the French who have all those immigrants to exploit.
The boats to research are the ones who seldom appear @ boatshows, but have full order books, who don't use big-name naval architects (who have to make a living) - in France Amel, Alubat, Wauquiez.
Single-handing - don't be deluded into thinking that the size of a boat is the main criterion - I know one single-handed 64' (if you exclude the cat) which has circumnavigated. Many 30' are nightmares to single hand.
Once upon a time we Brits had a thriving innovative sailboat industry - now as dead as the dodo, mainly through a penny-pinching customer base, giddy fluctuations in the £ conversion rate and totally incompetent marketing and management.
 
charles_reed said:
Single-handing - don't be deluded into thinking that the size of a boat is the main criterion - I know one single-handed 64' (if you exclude the cat) which has circumnavigated. Many 30' are nightmares to single hand.
Once upon a time we Brits had a thriving innovative sailboat industry - now as dead as the dodo, mainly through a penny-pinching customer base, giddy fluctuations in the £ conversion rate and totally incompetent marketing and management.
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We come across many single-handers who have circumnavigated, often in steel boats which are worth a fraction of a HR but would no doubt be hidden away in the corner of a posh marina. HRs are a nice boat but certainly in common with any other teak decked boat wouldn't be on my list for hot climates. There are hundreds of suitable blue water capable boats available on the market, British Westerly and Moody for instance which, after a refit, will last many more years. If price not a problem and I was looking at new boats, Ovni and Amel would be at or near the top of my list.
 
GrahamM376 said:
We come across many single-handers who have circumnavigated, often in steel boats which are worth a fraction of a HR but would no doubt be hidden away in the corner of a posh marina. HRs are a nice boat but certainly in common with any other teak decked boat wouldn't be on my list for hot climates. There are hundreds of suitable blue water capable boats available on the market, British Westerly and Moody for instance which, after a refit, will last many more years. If price not a problem and I was looking at new boats, Ovni and Amel would be at or near the top of my list.
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Thanks for the contributions. One of the issues that I was trying to raise it that by the time I get round to this the Moodys and Westerleys will be more than 30 years old and I am wary of refits.

Even though this thread has gone over some old ground I think there are some salient points. To me a teak deck is actually a negative. I am not bothered about an expensive mahogany interior.

Also I am coming to realise that when people say blue water they potentially really mean off the beaten track. Lots of 35 foot awbs make atlantic circuits I think. But that is marina to marina even if there is the occasional ocean crossing. If you look back a bit smaller boats were much more common, though there is a Delphia 33 in the arc this year.

So the plan has to be 35ft cruiser racer for club racing, med and Caribbean.

If I ever get enough time and money to bugger off completely, ovni or some equivalent at 7 years old!

So thats the plan. But the best thing about plans is that it will change in the next 5 years while I enjoy my current boat!!!
 
rb_stretch said:
Light, strong and cheap, you can only have two of those.
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I disagree with you there.

You can make a boat lighter and stronger by intelligent use of materials (the right choice and the correct placement and orientation). This also can make the build cheaper because you're using less materials.

Rondar found this out when Wizz Deaz showed them how to build 505s in the late 80s. The boats were lighter, stronger, and cost less to make. It didn't even show an increase in labour hours, just some time in the panning stage working out exactly what to use and where, which is what the likes of Bavaria do (they have a full set of lamination drawings for each layer, showing what material goes where, and which way the weave goes).
 
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One of the factors that heightens the appeal of HR/Malø for me is that they are fairly conservative in their designs, and eschew all the new whizzy fads, twin wheels, open sterns, fat bums et al. Or at least adopt them very slowly.

My old fogey credentials are showing here.
 
GrahamM376 said:
Others may disagree but I don't think your criteria of 35ft cruiser racer for going to Med and Caribbean quite fits the bill.
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Well a dufour 36 was about 10th in the fastnet last year. Obviously there won't be much space but in terms of dieing Im not sure there is a problem??
 
GrahamM376 said:
Others may disagree but I don't think your criteria of 35ft cruiser racer for going to Med and Caribbean quite fits the bill.
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I looked at the AZAB results for 2011 - X362, Sigma 36??

ARC 2008 - Beneteau 31.7, Dehler 36, Elan 37, Grand Soleil 37, Hanse 370, X372

What I meant was not going to the Med forever! Just a possible trip for a season or 2. Will mostly be used in the UK for cruising and racing with the idea that if a Med trip or Atlantic circuit was possible time wise it would be possible with the same boat.

What do I need??!!
 
Vara said:
One of the factors that heightens the appeal of HR/Malø for me is that they are fairly conservative in their designs, and eschew all the new whizzy fads, twin wheels, open sterns, fat bums et al. Or at least adopt them very slowly.

My old fogey credentials are showing here.
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Good stuff. My Father who just died at the age of 82 would have been disgusted at the idea of an HR/Malo, "Plastic Boats" !!
 
roblpm said:
To me a teak deck is actually a negative.
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Having lived with one for many years (and refurbished it twice), I'd certainly agree. Teak decks look and feel lovely, but not for ever. OK perhaps if you plan to sell the boat before it's say 15 years old. Fake teak products are getting better and better, and are now being specified on some superyachts. I can see this trend growing in the AWB world.
 
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