Re: Keelbolt conundrum

[rjp]

Re: Keelbolt conundrum

Thank you all for your comments. This is the first chance I've had to logon since my foreign trip and it was good to see that the Classic Boat forum support network has still been active while I've been away.

I promised I would update when I returned and I was delighted to see in today's mail a reply from Alan Buchanan to whom I wrote 2 weeks ago. When I wrote to him last year he omitted to answer my question about how long the keelbolts should last. However this time he has stated categorically that they are a special bronze alloy into lead and should never need replacing. He still didn't answer the question about how they were fitted, but it sounds to me, reading between the lines, that whatever method was used it wasn't intended to make removal easy. So it's probably a case of finding another surveyor who isn't quite so pedantic and an insurance company that is more helpful too. (When I questioned the need to remove a keelbolt the surveyor told me to ask the insurance company - they then told me to ask the surveyor!)

Can anyone recommend such an insurance company? I remember a very good one being recommended on this forum around last March, but they are not now accepting new business in wooden boats, so obviously the situation is fluid.

At the moment I'm feeling happy that I haven't gone off half-cocked and wrecked any perfectly good keelbolts. That feeling may change if I keep getting the run-around from insurance companies and surveyors though.

Will post again if anything interesting happens.

John

 

[tillergirl]

Re: Keelbolt conundrum

Having done my keel bolts last winter, let me fly a theory.

I had previously drawn a bolt some ten years earlier when I re-engined and I thought it prudent to knock out th bolt under the engine which was fine. Since that bolt had probably been in for 31 years, I was mightly encouraged. A survey inherited with the boat stated that the surveyor had inspected X rays in the mid 80s and passed the bolts.

More recently though, rust weeps became evident when standing on the beach each spring for re-painting. These weeps were not excessive (what's excessive) but were at the keel joint exactly at the position of bolts numbers 1 and 2. More, there was a dampness on the inside at bolt No 2 and a very slight leak between bolts 1 and 2 which I put down to garboard seam (but may have been the seam above which I renewed). So it seemed to me that the bolts needed to come out which duly they did last winter. Result, No 1 was in two pieces - the Nut looked fine but had less than 1" of bolt attached, No 2 was still there but in the winter of its life. The remaining bolts had slight wasting.

Theory - That keel bolts do give some obvious signs that they are going - well steel ones anyway and that it would be impossible for them to rust away without some tell-tale signs to a surveyor. When iron and steel rusts, it expands so it has to appear somewhere. The theory I am suggesting is that if the bolts are ferrous, a bit of detective work will give substantial and reliable clues.

There was an small Hillyard next to TG in the yard last winter with substantial rust weeps at the keel joint. The owner reckons that's the pig iron ballast opined the yard owner. Why then would the rust weeps only appear in line with the keel bolts. I think its another case of renewal required.

Does anyone know of bolts needing replacement where it wasn't indicated?

Sorry rjp, this probably doesn't help you but given the number of years that keels have been stuck on boats, it does seem odd that there isn't a bank of knowledge that is available to guide people - or is there and I have been too obtuse to see or hear it?

(You can see I'm bored tonight!)

 

[rjp]

Re: Keelbolt conundrum

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this.

What you say of course seems entirely in line with my original thinking and has been stated to me by others - if keel bolts are going to give problems there will be some symptoms. If there are none don't mess with them. As my bolts were bronze and my keel lead I couldn't see much scope for electrolytic corrosion and of course bronze doesn't rust. I guess in theory the only case where reliance on warning signs might break down is with stainless steel keelbolts as some grades are prone to crevice corrosion in anaerobic conditions and can fail without warning, but you would need to be pretty unlucky for all of them to fail at once, at least on a cruising boat. Lightly built racing boats might be different these days, keels have fallen off, but usually these have been design faults I feel.

Anyway, I still don't know if I'm out of the woods yet. I shall try to consult a different surveyor next week and see what can be resolved. Fortunately this has only cost me time, not money, as the surveyor in question declined to do a survey unless a keelbolt was drawn. I have a distinct feeling these days that surveyors and insurance companies are relying more and more on tick boxes rather than knowledge and common sense. Perhaps at some point in time it might just be worth investing some money in x-rays, but for now I have better things to spend my dwindling supply on!

John

 

[tillergirl]

Re: Keelbolt conundrum

I think you might be right to try another surveyor. None I've used or rather the surveyor I used did not ask for a bolt to be removed but had a good look around the keel joint and then inside and then wrote "The timber keel and deadwood, sound and good. The ballast keel fair and tight to juncture with the hull. No sign of past or recent movement or 'wringing' due to corroded or damaged thorough-bolts" I had reported removing the engine area keel bolts and this was reported in the survey. The earlier survey (1991) says "There was no evidence of weeping at the junture of the ballast keel and hull". The 1988 survey (for the previous owner) commented that no bolts had been withdrawn and recommended that two (one from either end be removed and if wasted more than 10%, they should all be renewed.

Of course, insurance companies may well be tightening up (although mine hasn't asked for a fresh survey for some years). Try another.

 

[rjp]

Re: Keelbolt conundrum

Thanks for that - very reassuring. I think the last surveyor I chose was more at home on steel and fibreglass boats, though he was recommended to me by a friend who said he was good. I now have the name of who specialises more in wooden boats so I think I'll try him. It does seem that insurance companies are particularly picky these days as I've had some who won't even entertain a wooden boats. Finding a decent one will be the next problem, but I thought the best approach would be to have a decent survey first.

John

 

[tillergirl]

Re: Keelbolt conundrum

I'm with Nautical Insurance Services of Leigh-on-Sea, Essex if it helps. Just off to France for two weeks!

 

[rjp]

Re: Keelbolt conundrum

Thanks for that. Bon voyage.

John