Re-engine Sadler 32

[doug748]

I think £1000 is wildly optimistic for a used and slightly dodgy 2002 running or not. I got about £700 on Ebay for a 2030 in perfect running order about three to four years ago.

It may be, but sometimes stuff throws up a curved one. Gawping at E Bay I swear that broken things, now and again, fetch blinking good prices.

Just wack in the good bits:
Starts easily, had it for X years, very clean, been reliable, all complete inc electrics, can have the shaft and prop if you like, good oil pressure, no leaks....

Be honest about the bad:
Looks like it needs new rings or even a top end rebuild, engineer says the injectors need looking at, not available till Nov.

Explain why you are getting rid of it, start at £100 and off you go. I got just short of £500 for my old Petter 12hp

 

[GrahamM376]

Went through this exercise some years ago when our 80D blew all the oil out. As we were in Viana de Castelo at the time, I didn't have many tools with me so, having stripped the engine, paid a local engineer to hone the bores and grind the valves, then I rebuilt it. Cost of rings, gaskets, labour etc < €1,000. Had I been at home, wouldn't have needed engineer so cost would have reduced by roughly 70%. Couple of years later, installed a new larger engine and sold the 80D for €800. Still running AFAIK.

 

[[70521]]

It was blowing oil out of the dipstick - he thought excessive crankcase pressure was also blowing it past the pistons. Definitely thought injectors were faulty cause of unburnt fuel. The thing is can have a compression test to check, then have the head done, grinding in valves, maybe replacing valves/valve seats at the same check elbow etc and it may still need new rings or even pistons (which are uneconomic to replace). It's a big risk to spend a lot on an old engine and then find something else major goes wrong a couple of years down the line.
Worst case scenario, on basis of maybe 5+ years further ownership is to have to replace the engine in 3 or 4 years and take all the costs and someone else gets all the benefit.

Thanks, I know a couple of brilliant mechanics I'll ask the question and see what they say.

 

[Normalfornorfolk]

Well, it can only be blowing oil out of the dipstick for one reason - that gas-stream has to come from somewhere and there is nowhere for it to come from except past the piston rings.
Nothing to diagnose there, really; maybe injectors are faulty, ditto valves but how would you tell if so much of the compression is going down the crankcase?
Pistons rings/bore seal is faulty. Anything else is an add-on...

 

[ghostlymoron]

I think that the 'Boat show price's is a bit of a myth. If it's economic to sell at a particular price at a boat show (very busy time), it's economic any other time. BTW I've been to Beta's works in Gloucester with a pal to order and pickup a B20. It's an impressive setup and we would both have liked to spend longer looking round, the staff were extremely knowledgeable, helpful and my pal was pleased with the deal. We had the engine loaded on a trailer by fork lift and manhandled it onto the boat using ladders, pulley blocks, ropes etc.

Where did you see under £4000. £4320 was the "LBS price" (but not limited to LBS visitors!) Beta quoted me today, as opposed to "normal price of £4473. I can see it would be worth my while to renew the insulation myself while the engine is out of the boat but I'm not sure I could do anything else - certainly not heavy lifting!

Good tip on old engine - I think I'll make a video of it starting and running as it would be a bit difficult to sell off a swinging mooring!

 

[billcole]

I replaced an old VP2002 with a Beta 25 on my First 305.

I did the installation myself, apart from paying 1/2hrs hire of the boatyard crane to lift it into place.

I used the money saved by DIY to make the DIY easy by getting Beta to fit their special feet so that the mounts were in the right position, their "Volvo" crossover exhaust elbow so that the exhaust pipe was in the right position (it also needed to be hi-rise for my boat to avoid the risk of backfilling the engine with seawater), and to supply the engine with the TMC60 down angled gearbox to match down angle of the old Volvo gearbox. I also went for a Vetus Bullflex coupling, to make the alignment less critical, but actually the alignment was pretty easy.

The Beta needs more cooling water than the 2002 did, minimum 19mm inlet to Volvo's 16mm, so I replaced the seawater inlet hull fitting and the strainer. I got a used large strainer very cheaply on ebay, so my inlet is now 32mm and reduces down to 19mm just as it enters the engine pump.

Beta exhaust is 50mm, compared to Volvo 45mm, but there are waterlocks available (Quiet Flow brand) with stepped ends to them, which you cut off to leave the diameter you need , so I have a short length of 50mm between exhaust elbow and waterlock, and then the existing 45mm from waterlock to transom outlet. If/when that needs replacing I can just cut off the next step in the waterlock and go 50mm all the way.

I went for a Bruntons Autoprop. After chatting on their stand at a boatshow it seemed that I needed 3 blades( in place of the original 2) to effectively couple the increased power to the sea in the available space. Bruntons sold me a "reconditioned" H5 direct from the factory for about 30% off RRP, which looked absolutely brand new when I got it.

I also replaced the propshaft, which was worn where it passed through the Volvo shaft seal, so dripped a little when the engine was running. I think that saved me a lot of struggle getting the old shaft out of the old coupling.

Sorry to waffle on at such length, but I hope some of it may be of use to you !

 

[eddystone]

Thanks to everyone for advice. Doesn't make any difference to long term prognosis but after "reviewing the evidence" I think it may be all unburnt fuel rather than steam, so maybe not gasket. It does mean I feel I can use the boat until it's convenient to come out of the water early next year provided I use the engine as little as possible and don't put it under too much load.
Engineer said the only worthwhile alternative to re-engine is to have the injectors "done", take the head off and skim probably replacing the valve seats and at least the exhaust valves which tend to burn out and then do a compression test and then repeat after putting some oil in the bores. I believe the total cost of this will be at least £800 but I would think there is a more than 50% chance it would indicate the need for a rebore/new pistons/rings in which case it would be would be money wasted since the cost of anything beyond a head job is rebuild is prohibitive.

It's a pity modern Volvos don't have the same footprint as the old ones; from the SSOA website I gather if you've got an earlier Sadler 32 which had the Bukh 20 engine, the current Bukh 24 is a drop in replacement and there are a number of ex-lifeboat engines around that fit the bill.

 

[eddystone]

I replaced an old VP2002 with a Beta 25 on my First 305.

I did the installation myself, apart from paying 1/2hrs hire of the boatyard crane to lift it into place.

I used the money saved by DIY to make the DIY easy by getting Beta to fit their special feet so that the mounts were in the right position, their "Volvo" crossover exhaust elbow so that the exhaust pipe was in the right position (it also needed to be hi-rise for my boat to avoid the risk of backfilling the engine with seawater), and to supply the engine with the TMC60 down angled gearbox to match down angle of the old Volvo gearbox. I also went for a Vetus Bullflex coupling, to make the alignment less critical, but actually the alignment was pretty easy.

The Beta needs more cooling water than the 2002 did, minimum 19mm inlet to Volvo's 16mm, so I replaced the seawater inlet hull fitting and the strainer. I got a used large strainer very cheaply on ebay, so my inlet is now 32mm and reduces down to 19mm just as it enters the engine pump.

Beta exhaust is 50mm, compared to Volvo 45mm, but there are waterlocks available (Quiet Flow brand) with stepped ends to them, which you cut off to leave the diameter you need , so I have a short length of 50mm between exhaust elbow and waterlock, and then the existing 45mm from waterlock to transom outlet. If/when that needs replacing I can just cut off the next step in the waterlock and go 50mm all the way.

I went for a Bruntons Autoprop. After chatting on their stand at a boatshow it seemed that I needed 3 blades( in place of the original 2) to effectively couple the increased power to the sea in the available space. Bruntons sold me a "reconditioned" H5 direct from the factory for about 30% off RRP, which looked absolutely brand new when I got it.

I also replaced the propshaft, which was worn where it passed through the Volvo shaft seal, so dripped a little when the engine was running. I think that saved me a lot of struggle getting the old shaft out of the old coupling.

Sorry to waffle on at such length, but I hope some of it may be of use to you !

Thanks - all useful info in pricing up replacement. I am pretty inept at mechanical things - it took me weeks to replace a stern seal, mainly because every snag required endless googling/phone calls etc., and have a bad back, so its hard to see what bits I could DIY without getting in installers way and making whole job longer. Fitting new sound insulation yes, possibly adapting the space where the instrument panel goes. The other thing is if you do some bits yourself, its easy for the installer to wriggle off the hook if there are issues.

 

[GrahamM376]

Thanks to everyone for advice. Doesn't make any difference to long term prognosis but after "reviewing the evidence" I think it may be all unburnt fuel rather than steam, so maybe not gasket. It does mean I feel I can use the boat until it's convenient to come out of the water early next year provided I use the engine as little as possible and don't put it under too much load.
Engineer said the only worthwhile alternative to re-engine is to have the injectors "done", take the head off and skim probably replacing the valve seats and at least the exhaust valves which tend to burn out and then do a compression test and then repeat after putting some oil in the bores. I believe the total cost of this will be at least £800 but I would think there is a more than 50% chance it would indicate the need for a rebore/new pistons/rings in which case it would be would be money wasted since the cost of anything beyond a head job is rebuild is prohibitive.

It's a pity modern Volvos don't have the same footprint as the old ones; from the SSOA website I gather if you've got an earlier Sadler 32 which had the Bukh 20 engine, the current Bukh 24 is a drop in replacement and there are a number of ex-lifeboat engines around that fit the bill.

If the oil pressure OK and no sign of water in it and temperature is OK and it's running on all cylinders, then carry on and use it. I disagree with engineers suggestions. First step I would take would be to get the injectors serviced and maybe check compression at the same time. If compression is down then by all means think about removing the head but, unless the faces and gasket tell you different, no need to skim it. Valve seats usually just need a grind but if necessary can be refaced without replacing - if it was that bad, the engine would be running rough. I know you're not too keen on DIY but, if necessary, removing the head on a push rod engine is really easy, don't you have any mates who are into car engines?

 

[chrishelen]

I would take it for a full power blast for 30-40 minutes. Italian tune they used to call it. Perhaps things are gummed up from slow, gentle running which diesels hate.

 

[eddystone]

I know you're not too keen on DIY but, if necessary, removing the head on a push rod engine is really easy, don't you have any mates who are into car engines?

Unfortunately not! What I fail to understand, on reflection, is why engineer thinks works described above, which are limited to the head and injectors, are worthwhile and if the other symptoms (pressure in crankcase, oil blowing out of dipstick) point to the need to at least hone the bores and new rings.

BTW is it possible that a bit too much oil in the sump could have that effect?

 

[Deleted member 36384]

Unfortunately not! What I fail to understand, on reflection, is why engineer thinks works described above, which are limited to the head and injectors, are worthwhile and if the other symptoms (pressure in crankcase, oil blowing out of dipstick) point to the need to at least hone the bores and new rings.

BTW is it possible that a bit too much oil in the sump could have that effect?

Over filling with oil can cause excess pressure that is not vented fast enough by a breather. It can lead to oil being blown out of other orifices as well as issues with seals, including blowing by the oil ring on the piston. It depends on how much, what is "a bit too much oil"?

 

[solent clown]

Unfortunately not! What I fail to understand, on reflection, is why engineer thinks works described above, which are limited to the head and injectors, are worthwhile and if the other symptoms (pressure in crankcase, oil blowing out of dipstick) point to the need to at least hone the bores and new rings.

BTW is it possible that a bit too much oil in the sump could have that effect?

excessive crankase pressure can occur for a variety of reasons, not just rings/bore. If you have a bad head gasket you can have those symptoms, or bad exhaust valves.

 

[eddystone]

Over filling with oil can cause excess pressure that is not vented fast enough by a breather. It can lead to oil being blown out of other orifices as well as issues with seals, including blowing by the oil ring on the piston. It depends on how much, what is "a bit too much oil"?

Well, thought level had dropped and added maybe 200-400 ml can't remember exactly - normally think on a car 1L between high and low on the dipstick, but thats my Disco 2.7 which holds 6L - VP2002 only half that.

 

[GrahamM376]

Unfortunately not! What I fail to understand, on reflection, is why engineer thinks works described above, which are limited to the head and injectors, are worthwhile and if the other symptoms (pressure in crankcase, oil blowing out of dipstick) point to the need to at least hone the bores and new rings.

BTW is it possible that a bit too much oil in the sump could have that effect?

When I replied above, I was referring to what the engineer said and your first post on this thread about white smoke. I didn't tie it up with the other thread about crankcase compression. First step therefore would be compression test to see if just one cylinder to blame or whether all are down. If rings sticking, then most likely just in one cylinder and that would show up whereas if it's just getting tired, all cylinders would be down a bit. I doubt it's being caused by a bad exhaust valve as no mention of engine running rough but, if rings are suspected, then the head will have to come off anyway and valves are easy enough to check, as is blown head gasket etc.

 

[eddystone]

When I replied above, I was referring to what the engineer said and your first post on this thread about white smoke. I didn't tie it up with the other thread about crankcase compression. First step therefore would be compression test to see if just one cylinder to blame or whether all are down. If rings sticking, then most likely just in one cylinder and that would show up whereas if it's just getting tired, all cylinders would be down a bit. I doubt it's being caused by a bad exhaust valve as no mention of engine running rough but, if rings are suspected, then the head will have to come off anyway and valves are easy enough to check, as is blown head gasket etc.

Forgive my ignorance but is it possible to replace the rings from above, i.e. without withdrawing the pistons and con rods?

 

[solent clown]

Forgive my ignorance but is it possible to replace the rings from above, i.e. without withdrawing the pistons and con rods?

without disconnecting the con rods from the crank you cant do anything with the rings as they are encapsulated within the cylinder bores. In theory you could leave the engine block where it is to do so, as long as you could get the sump off and the conrod bolts undone, but honing the bores would be problematic should it be required.

 

[GrahamM376]

Forgive my ignorance but is it possible to replace the rings from above, i.e. without withdrawing the pistons and con rods?

As solent clown says, the sump has to come off, which you may be able to do with the engine still on its mounts. Honing in place needs clearance above the block (which shouldn't be a problem with the head off) for an electric drill plus about 6" for the tool - it can be inserted into the bore and then into the drill chuck. Typical tool here - http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Car-Engin...epid=0&hash=item3f863046ef:g:y44AAOSwcj5ZTBoM

 

[solent clown]

if you hone with the crank still in place, stuff an oily rag into the bottom of the bore to avoid contaminating the bottom end assembly. In an ideal world it isn't to be recommended but if you are careful and you have the opportunity to give it all a good flush afterwards then it will be fine. You dont need to buy an expensive engine flush, clean diesel works equally as well.

 

[robertj]

Some interesting possibilities there.

Seems to me there are 3 issues - a) total cost, b) added value (or not) in performance terms and c) impact on value of boat when come to sell (probably when give up on bigger boats).
Although the simplest solution might be finding a rebuilt 2002 and the labour cost and cost of adaptation/new bits will be less, one can't guarantee that there aren't unseen issues and, it's still a 2002 at the end of the day (noisy crude and simple); also as far as future buyer is concerned, it's still a (then) 35 year old engine. Something like a refurbed 2020 seems like the worst of all worlds - still regarded as an old engine, but all the costs of adapting to a different layout. Looking at something much more recent, if you had a choice of new beta 25 with a warranty for £4300 and a 3 year old Di-30 off a drowned boat for £3,500, which would you go for? Also the beta rotates the same way as a 2002 so that may simplify things.

If I was a competent engineer and had the time and the equipment, I might consider overhauling myself but the cost of new pistons/ring sets is horrendous.

the beta 30 would be a better engine for the sadler. Best engine would be the Yanmar 30, smaller, quieter but more expensive.