Re-engine Sadler 32

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eddystone

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Following earlier thread on white smoke in the exhaust ( I should have done a search first!) the engineer thinks it (VP2002) has more serious problems. I'm not going to throw a lot of money at a 30 year old engine so it looks like a re-engine. A lot of the issues seem to be down to having to relocate ancilliaries. Based on the most likely choice of a Beta 25, wonder if anyone been down this road and knows the pratfalls!

I don't know which way the shaft turns on a Beta, but currently I have a 15.5 x 12 RH 2 bladed prop; on the standard 2002, Volvo advice is to let it spin in neutral which reduces drag; if I had to lock it off with a fixed prop drag would be worse than present so I might be tempted to go for a Darglow feathering prop, even more so if I had to get a new prop anyway. Hear you need to change the anode every 6 months though, which is a drag (no pun intended)

I'm assuming it will need new feet, new exhaust (hopefully to existing hull outlet), need a new Morse control anyway, some fiddling around to fit new electrics and switch panel, possibly new shaft and prop (as above) but can recycle existing primary filter/water trap.

I would guess that the Beta has more torque low down than the 2002 which should also help manoeuvrability. Just now need to see whether this stuff about "Boat Show prices" really applies if I'm not planning to go to one.

Also understand labour likely to be around £1500. The only DIY contribution I'm likely to make is fitting new insulation while the engine is out. What do you think an old 2002 should fetch on ebay (as a runner, which it is)?
 
If it's any help, I fitted a new B25 in 2012. It replaced a smaller Beta, so a new prop as well, 15" x 9" Flexofold 2 blader and that's a bit over-propped. The Gearbox is 2:1. On that basis your existing prop is too big.
Re exhaust, as standard the B25 has a 50mm alloy elbow. Beta were quite happy to supply a 40 mm stainless elbow instead and said it was fully adequate in size, this was helpful for my installation.
A good engine, a bit more power than I really need. A Sadler 32 might be OK with a B20.
 
Make sure you cost ALL the work before deciding to re-engine. I was looking to change a Yanmar to a Beta on the old boat, came in a shade under £10,000. Might be cheaper to buy a reconditioned VP2002. I might be interested in your old VP2002 for spares.
 
Sandy said:
Make sure you cost ALL the work before deciding to re-engine. I was looking to change a Yanmar to a Beta on the old boat, came in a shade under £10,000. Might be cheaper to buy a reconditioned VP2002. I might be interested in your old VP2002 for spares.
Click to expand...

That sounds a lot on top of cost of engine (c£4500) and labour. £4000 for ancilliaries?
 
earlybird said:
If it's any help, I fitted a new B25 in 2012. It replaced a smaller Beta, so a new prop as well, 15" x 9" Flexofold 2 blader and that's a bit over-propped. The Gearbox is 2:1. On that basis your existing prop is too big.
Re exhaust, as standard the B25 has a 50mm alloy elbow. Beta were quite happy to supply a 40 mm stainless elbow instead and said it was fully adequate in size, this was helpful for my installation.
A good engine, a bit more power than I really need. A Sadler 32 might be OK with a B20.
Click to expand...

When I enquired about Darglow Feartherstream at last years boat show, they thought it was too small. They had done 16" with S32 and Beta 25. BTW I find the 2002 (18HP) a bit underpowered when punching against the tide/headwinds. If have to cough up for new engine seems pointless saving a relatively small amount. Still if it really was £10K I think I would shop around for a recon 2002.
 
Also wondering about cost effectiveness of refurb/second hand engines - I saw a 2020 advertised for £1795, and a 2014 Di-30 with less than 100 hours taken from a written off hull (but not itself submerged) for £3495, inc g/box.
 
You may find the cost rises when you actually come to do the job when you find all the extra bits are 30 years old and need replacing. Get there back number of the article by Snooks on doing the same job on his Sadler 32 using a Beta 28 which is the best choice for the boat. Not quite as high as £10k but did include a Featherstream.

Of course you can reduce costs with a secondhand engine if you know what you are doing, but the chances of finding a good 2002 are very slim, for the same reason you are replacing yours.
 
eddystone said:
That sounds a lot on top of cost of engine (c£4500) and labour. £4000 for ancilliaries?
Click to expand...
Once you start working through the system you may find lots of things need adjusting, replacing etc, is the prop shaft at the right angle, does the engine fit where the old one sat. Unless you can do all this yourself costs will run away if you don't consider them to start with.

A pal bought an engine from these chaps

http://www.marineenterprisesltd.co.uk/

and was impressed with both the engine and service.
 
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Sandy said:
Once you start working through the system you may find lots of things need adjusting, replacing etc, is the prop shaft at the right angle, does the engine fit where the old one sat. Unless you can do all this yourself costs will run away if you don't consider them to start with.

A pal bought an engine from these chaps

http://www.marineenterprisesltd.co.uk/

and was impressed with both the engine and service.
Click to expand...

Some interesting possibilities there.

Seems to me there are 3 issues - a) total cost, b) added value (or not) in performance terms and c) impact on value of boat when come to sell (probably when give up on bigger boats).
Although the simplest solution might be finding a rebuilt 2002 and the labour cost and cost of adaptation/new bits will be less, one can't guarantee that there aren't unseen issues and, it's still a 2002 at the end of the day (noisy crude and simple); also as far as future buyer is concerned, it's still a (then) 35 year old engine. Something like a refurbed 2020 seems like the worst of all worlds - still regarded as an old engine, but all the costs of adapting to a different layout. Looking at something much more recent, if you had a choice of new beta 25 with a warranty for £4300 and a 3 year old Di-30 off a drowned boat for £3,500, which would you go for? Also the beta rotates the same way as a 2002 so that may simplify things.

If I was a competent engineer and had the time and the equipment, I might consider overhauling myself but the cost of new pistons/ring sets is horrendous.
 
Source the Beta yourself and it will come in under £4,000. Pick it up (I see you are on the doorstep) and save more. Two fit men can lift it into a small trailer or fair sized estate.
Then look for a fitter to quote.
The cost is a piece of string job but it is doable for less than 5k plus the fitting fee. If you ask the fitter to take out and put in insulation or a new fuel tank, etc, etc the cost will be huge for limited added value. Do the donkey work yourself.

Consider selling the old engine out of the boat so it can be seen running, value is another conundrum but my guess would be £1,000.
 
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doug748 said:
Source the Beta yourself and it will come in under £4,000. Pick it up (I see you are on the doorstep) and save more. Two fit men can lift it into a small trailer or fair sized estate.
Then look for a fitter to quote.
The cost is a piece of string job but it is doable for less than 5k plus the fitting fee. If you ask the fitter to take out and put in insulation or a new fuel tank, etc, etc the cost will be huge for limited added value. Do the donkey work yourself.

Consider selling the old engine out of the boat so it can be seen running, value is another conundrum but my guess would be £1,000.
Click to expand...

Where did you see under £4000. £4320 was the "LBS price" (but not limited to LBS visitors!) Beta quoted me today, as opposed to "normal price of £4473. I can see it would be worth my while to renew the insulation myself while the engine is out of the boat but I'm not sure I could do anything else - certainly not heavy lifting!

Good tip on old engine - I think I'll make a video of it starting and running as it would be a bit difficult to sell off a swinging mooring!
 
Tranona said:
Get there back number of the article by Snooks on doing the same job on his Sadler 32 using a Beta 28 which is the best choice for the boat. Not quite as high as £10k but did include a Featherstream.
Click to expand...

Note that at some point (on here?) Snooks said he was obliged to use all list prices for the magazine article, but in practice he'd got some of it at lower prices, and hence the total cost was actually somewhat lower than that indicated in the magazine. On the other hand it was a little while back now, so prices would have generally risen.
 
eddystone said:
....I might be tempted to go for a Darglow feathering prop, even more so if I had to get a new prop anyway. Hear you need to change the anode every 6 months though, which is a drag (no pun intended)
Click to expand...

The anode contacts the prop all around its circular base so, if the bolts and the small area around the 2 mounting holes is antifouled to stop those thin bits eating away, it still works OK and will last 12 months. With a shaft anode as well, mine sometimes lasts 2 seasons.
 
eddystone said:
Where did you see under £4000. £4320 was the "LBS price" (but not limited to LBS visitors!) Beta quoted me today, as opposed to "normal price of £4473. I can see it would be worth my while to renew the insulation myself while the engine is out of the boat but I'm not sure I could do anything else - certainly not heavy lifting!
!
Click to expand...

You won't see the best price advertised but you need to speak with them direct over the telephone. Remember the 20hp engine is perfectly adequate for your boat and that there are cheaper engines that you are "looking at" Notably the Chinese ones which would save you several hundred quid but I would never recommend. Your final gambit, after a few calls and getting a feel for the lowest price, would be: I can put a big cheque in the post tonight .......if we can get it down to xxxxxx.
The price of these engines was held at around £3,800ish for 10 years but they have obviously taken a hit with the Pound/Yen exchange.

You don't need to lift the engine if you have a garden trailer, they will put it in and the fitter can take it out, just a thought. That's how I moved mine.
 
Sandy said:
did your engineer give you any clue what the other problems were?
Click to expand...

It was blowing oil out of the dipstick - he thought excessive crankcase pressure was also blowing it past the pistons. Definitely thought injectors were faulty cause of unburnt fuel. The thing is can have a compression test to check, then have the head done, grinding in valves, maybe replacing valves/valve seats at the same check elbow etc and it may still need new rings or even pistons (which are uneconomic to replace). It's a big risk to spend a lot on an old engine and then find something else major goes wrong a couple of years down the line.
Worst case scenario, on basis of maybe 5+ years further ownership is to have to replace the engine in 3 or 4 years and take all the costs and someone else gets all the benefit.
 
You might take a look at these, apparently a rebadged marinised Kubota. (If this is in fact correct spares should be plentiful and relatively cheap)

https://www.boatsandoutboards.co.uk...t-20-20hp-marine-diesel-engine-package/114660

I changed a 3GM for a 3YM in a Sadler 32 and it was way overpowered. There's a lot to be said for changing like for like as it saves the considerable and unpredictable cost of rebuilding engine bearers to carry the new engine as well as changing/rejigging all the ancillary connections - water, exhaust, electrics, controls, instruments etc which will, I promise you, be slow, tedious and labour intensive (=£££)
 
Seeing as the old engine has issues, which might be anything from stuck rings upwards, I don't think it's going to be sold as a good runner.
So it's not worth much in its current state.
So, what I would consider would be:
Take it out.
Take the head off.
Have a good engine builder read its fortune.
Then either rebuild it or flog it for spares.

IT does not necessarily need to rebuilt good as new, just good enough to give reasonable of giving say another ten years light use?
It might be worth working out the minimum cost of fixing it?
That's not going to be less than gaskets, rings and big end bolts?
Plus whatever labour?
OTOH, if I was expecting to do a lot of engine hours and keep the boat for many years, replacing it looks more sensible.
 
I think £1000 is wildly optimistic for a used and slightly dodgy 2002 running or not. I got about £700 on Ebay for a 2030 in perfect running order about three to four years ago.
 
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