Sailfree
Well-known member
Re: Are Ben/Jen/Bavs really all that bad?
For Ben/Jen/Bav I believe you could also add Dufour, all can be considered AWB's. I note one person already believes the Contessa 32 is the only boat worth having! My yachtmaster examiner owned one and stated that he thought them great boats but not as good as they were cracked up to be. They are very wet boats with a low freeboard compared to a modern AWB. I compared some personal experiences before and repeat my postin here:-
"You have re-opened the ongoing debate in which no-one changes their mind just repeats their own prejudices and leaves newcomers to try and make informed opinions.
A close friend and myself went from dinghy racing to larger boats at the same time. I chose mine on what was popular and could be chartered. I chose a Dufour 36. He tended to be seasick and decided he wanted a "survive anything" boat and hence chose a Rustler 36. I have sailed both and they are both good boats but different.
Manouverability - The Dufour can spin on a sixpence while the Rustler being long Keeled DOES NOT GO ASTERN in any predictable way and in marinas everyone checked their Insurance policys. My friend is a very competent sailer but decided in the end that (while frequenting other marinas as much as they did) a bow thruster for going astern was a necessity - one now fitted. In larger sizes of AWB's say 43Feet upwards they have so much windage (higher freeboard) a bow thruster is also sensible.
Cost- The Dufour is roughly half the cost of the Rustler (both new) and depreciates a larger %. The Rustler depreciates less but in cash terms because of the double initial price of the rustler it amounts to roughly the same amount of cash. Long term say 30 years I believe the Rustler will have a better resale value. The AWB's have a larger new market share and a large 2nd hand market share. The Rustler has a more selective market but nearly everthing sells if the price is right!
Sailing - The Dufour was lighter and faster on most points of sailing except when the going got rough. Beating into a sea the Rustler showed its superiority but would still be uncomfortable. Unless you really like punishment or have a macho complex there is no fun beating into a F9 on any boat in my opinion. In a Dufour 38 in the Bay of Biscay this year I did my normal thing (in a light production boat) and reefed down and motor sailed into the wind. It was no fun and I seriously wonder of any AWB's ability to beat off a lee shore in bad conditions. However I sail for pleasure and do the tourist bit in port when the weather is bad. My friend while having a boat that will cope with bad conditions also chooses to stay in port in bad weather. He sails for pleasure as well and has nothing to prove.
Space - The Dufour 36 sleeps 8 while the Rustler sleeps 5 available internal space is also in the same ratio. The respective boats ability to handle bad conditions seems the inverse of the internal space. Most say 30ft AWB's equal the space of a Rustler 36.
There are boats in between these designs but to simplify the comparison I have stuck to the extremes.
Conclusions- My friend has decided that sailing is for pleasure and would never chose to go out in bad weather and as he is not going to do serious blue water cruising he now occasionally questions whether the trade off of space for sailing ability was the right choice. He has though bought an expensive classic boat but one that will retain its value and look after them if he was ever caught out in bad weather. He was once caught out in the North Sea in an unexpected F9 and while not pleasant it justified his confidence in the boat. The Rustler took care of them. I can only speak from 7 years experience and while I have been caught out in 55kts of wind it was in the sheltered waters of the Solent. This wind only occurs when people are doing their Yachtmaster examinations! The Dufour coped but I know the Rustler would have been much better.
In reality the criteria that we both used to determine our initial choices of boat are still as relevant today and I suspect we would still buy the same boat again.
I recommend you to consider your priorities. If you are going Blue water sailing and may be caught during a 2 month sail in bad weather going for the Rustler end of the market must be more important however if you sail for pleasure and do no journeys outside a reasonably predictable weather window then you can do it for less money invested and more space in an AWB. The AWB will cope with some unexpected bad weather but you would be foolish to skirt lee shores in such conditions.
I am aware of 2 jouneys in a Dufour 38 in very bad weather and the boat managed but a Rustler would have managed a lot better. There was an "experience" article in YM about 2 years ago. I mention both the Dufour 36 & 38 as I have lots of experience of these two but I am sure their competitors are directly comparable.
All boats are a compromise and scuttlebutt is a good way of getting insight to both peoples experiences and their prejudices. Good Luck."
I have now sold 2 AwB's without any difficulty and very quickly. I consider the residual value reasonable. I do wonder how quickly some of the so called "quality" boats sell.
I find it amazing how so many people feel so knowledgible that they heap such criticism on the largest sucessful boatbuilders in Europe! If they know so much I wish they would put their money where their mouth is and starting building the boats that they profess are the only ones we should buy. I remember one of the original debates when "Stingo" proposed sailing his AWB round the world. Some "experts" predicted dire warnings and that he should go no further than an inland boating lake. Stingo made it to South America!
There are few bad boats just boats with a different emphasis on certain criteria than others.
Good luck - just get something and get out there enjoying the freedom of sailing.
Regards
roger
For Ben/Jen/Bav I believe you could also add Dufour, all can be considered AWB's. I note one person already believes the Contessa 32 is the only boat worth having! My yachtmaster examiner owned one and stated that he thought them great boats but not as good as they were cracked up to be. They are very wet boats with a low freeboard compared to a modern AWB. I compared some personal experiences before and repeat my postin here:-
"You have re-opened the ongoing debate in which no-one changes their mind just repeats their own prejudices and leaves newcomers to try and make informed opinions.
A close friend and myself went from dinghy racing to larger boats at the same time. I chose mine on what was popular and could be chartered. I chose a Dufour 36. He tended to be seasick and decided he wanted a "survive anything" boat and hence chose a Rustler 36. I have sailed both and they are both good boats but different.
Manouverability - The Dufour can spin on a sixpence while the Rustler being long Keeled DOES NOT GO ASTERN in any predictable way and in marinas everyone checked their Insurance policys. My friend is a very competent sailer but decided in the end that (while frequenting other marinas as much as they did) a bow thruster for going astern was a necessity - one now fitted. In larger sizes of AWB's say 43Feet upwards they have so much windage (higher freeboard) a bow thruster is also sensible.
Cost- The Dufour is roughly half the cost of the Rustler (both new) and depreciates a larger %. The Rustler depreciates less but in cash terms because of the double initial price of the rustler it amounts to roughly the same amount of cash. Long term say 30 years I believe the Rustler will have a better resale value. The AWB's have a larger new market share and a large 2nd hand market share. The Rustler has a more selective market but nearly everthing sells if the price is right!
Sailing - The Dufour was lighter and faster on most points of sailing except when the going got rough. Beating into a sea the Rustler showed its superiority but would still be uncomfortable. Unless you really like punishment or have a macho complex there is no fun beating into a F9 on any boat in my opinion. In a Dufour 38 in the Bay of Biscay this year I did my normal thing (in a light production boat) and reefed down and motor sailed into the wind. It was no fun and I seriously wonder of any AWB's ability to beat off a lee shore in bad conditions. However I sail for pleasure and do the tourist bit in port when the weather is bad. My friend while having a boat that will cope with bad conditions also chooses to stay in port in bad weather. He sails for pleasure as well and has nothing to prove.
Space - The Dufour 36 sleeps 8 while the Rustler sleeps 5 available internal space is also in the same ratio. The respective boats ability to handle bad conditions seems the inverse of the internal space. Most say 30ft AWB's equal the space of a Rustler 36.
There are boats in between these designs but to simplify the comparison I have stuck to the extremes.
Conclusions- My friend has decided that sailing is for pleasure and would never chose to go out in bad weather and as he is not going to do serious blue water cruising he now occasionally questions whether the trade off of space for sailing ability was the right choice. He has though bought an expensive classic boat but one that will retain its value and look after them if he was ever caught out in bad weather. He was once caught out in the North Sea in an unexpected F9 and while not pleasant it justified his confidence in the boat. The Rustler took care of them. I can only speak from 7 years experience and while I have been caught out in 55kts of wind it was in the sheltered waters of the Solent. This wind only occurs when people are doing their Yachtmaster examinations! The Dufour coped but I know the Rustler would have been much better.
In reality the criteria that we both used to determine our initial choices of boat are still as relevant today and I suspect we would still buy the same boat again.
I recommend you to consider your priorities. If you are going Blue water sailing and may be caught during a 2 month sail in bad weather going for the Rustler end of the market must be more important however if you sail for pleasure and do no journeys outside a reasonably predictable weather window then you can do it for less money invested and more space in an AWB. The AWB will cope with some unexpected bad weather but you would be foolish to skirt lee shores in such conditions.
I am aware of 2 jouneys in a Dufour 38 in very bad weather and the boat managed but a Rustler would have managed a lot better. There was an "experience" article in YM about 2 years ago. I mention both the Dufour 36 & 38 as I have lots of experience of these two but I am sure their competitors are directly comparable.
All boats are a compromise and scuttlebutt is a good way of getting insight to both peoples experiences and their prejudices. Good Luck."
I have now sold 2 AwB's without any difficulty and very quickly. I consider the residual value reasonable. I do wonder how quickly some of the so called "quality" boats sell.
I find it amazing how so many people feel so knowledgible that they heap such criticism on the largest sucessful boatbuilders in Europe! If they know so much I wish they would put their money where their mouth is and starting building the boats that they profess are the only ones we should buy. I remember one of the original debates when "Stingo" proposed sailing his AWB round the world. Some "experts" predicted dire warnings and that he should go no further than an inland boating lake. Stingo made it to South America!
There are few bad boats just boats with a different emphasis on certain criteria than others.
Good luck - just get something and get out there enjoying the freedom of sailing.
Regards
roger
