Rcd (recreational craft directive) brexit hot mess

[SailingEd]

Orders for new boats isn't the issue here. New boats would have had to comply anyway!

As I understand it, (OP, correct me if I'm wrong). This is something to do with importing second hand boats from the EU into the UK?
To be honest, I don't fully understand the problem. The current published version of the RCD appears to be 2013/53/EU, so nothing has changed on the RCD itself, since 2013. I'm therefore assuming the problem is with some new piece of UK legislation? Stork linked to the 2017 UK regulations, and it seems they have been amended recently, so the problem might be within the amendment. I'd have to find a copy to comment further.

However, I have just stumbled across this, whilst searching:

https://assets.publishing.service.g...to-recreational-craft-regulations-2017-tp.pdf

(See Section 8 on "Private importers"). It also seems to suggest that the CE mark will be sufficient for something "placed on the marked" before 31/12/21 (See Section 10), so there is still hope if the OP and the vendor can move quickly enough!

If the problem is one created by an amendment to some GB regulations, I would have imagined that British Marine and RYA would have been consulted / should have been aware of the public consultation, so I can't understand why it has not been challenged. However, I'm not going to "cast the first stone" as I know how difficult it can be to keep an eye on everything that's changing at once!

Correct, i thought i was pretty clear on the second hand part but hey ho, not sure how the conversation steered to new boats, new boats will have the necessary technical files etc as its day to day practice these days and since the UKCA is a copy paste of the CE currently they will comply, they just need assessing by a UK agent.

the boat im after is a 1979 so no CE mark, but the exemption from 1/1/21-1/1/23 which allows CE marked to be placed on the market requires a post construction assessment by 1/1/23 to use past that date, this is because it wasnt in UK water on the eve of brexit (that's how the Legal advice explained it)
the exemption is merely for new boats to allow manufactures time to transition to UKCA, but the company has until 2023 effectively to submit their designs to UKCA, and like i say because UKCA is a copy n paste of CE currently it will be a paper excercise for manufacturers to obtain type approval until we start to veer from the EU norms.

but anyway i digress, its the 1979 build date that's the main issue as it predates RCD and CE where technical files are not necessarily available

the main problem is that the new text in the 2017 version omits the pre 1998 exemption, and also add some text stating "date of entry to market" rather than manufactured date, so a used 1997 bavaria in UK waters on brexit eve is compliant to RCR and UKCA, but the exact same model which lay in France on the eve of brexit is not compliant and potentially "unseaworthy" in the RCRs eyes, (even if the one in the uk was full of holes it would be compliant!)

Pre 1998 should be exempt, 1998-2021 a CE mark should be accepted Post 2021 UKCA fine... thats how it should have been written with the caveat that the boat was built in the EEA (therefore compliant at date of manufacture!) the new text is nonsense!

 

[Avocet]

Well referring to my post. I had to do it & I managed it quite well. On top of that , because of my position, I spent a lot of time speaking in industry on how etc; whilst MD of a reasonably sized business at the same time . If I was the same age & involved in industry now, I would be doing the same, I expect. I enjoyed the challenge actually. There will be others, there always is.

Sorry, but when was that? Have we left the EU before?

 

[Avocet]

Well, at least Ddb isn't being negative and defeatist, unlike some others.

There's a world of difference between "negative and defeatist" and "unrealistic and impractical". Obviously, we can't discuss the "B" word, but let's just say that one of us (albeit not in the marine industry) is having to face the reality of it on a daily basis - and it really doesn't smell good....

 

[Avocet]

Correct, i thought i was pretty clear on the second hand part but hey ho, not sure how the conversation steered to new boats, new boats will have the necessary technical files etc as its day to day practice these days and since the UKCA is a copy paste of the CE currently they will comply, they just need assessing by a UK agent.

the boat im after is a 1979 so no CE mark, but the exemption from 1/1/21-1/1/23 which allows CE marked to be placed on the market requires a post construction assessment by 1/1/23 to use past that date, this is because it wasnt in UK water on the eve of brexit (that's how the Legal advice explained it)
the exemption is merely for new boats to allow manufactures time to transition to UKCA, but the company has until 2023 effectively to submit their designs to UKCA, and like i say because UKCA is a copy n paste of CE currently it will be a paper excercise for manufacturers to obtain type approval until we start to veer from the EU norms.

but anyway i digress, its the 1979 build date that's the main issue as it predates RCD and CE where technical files are not necessarily available

the main problem is that the new text in the 2017 version omits the pre 1998 exemption, and also add some text stating "date of entry to market" rather than manufactured date, so a used 1997 bavaria in UK waters on brexit eve is compliant to RCR and UKCA, but the exact same model which lay in France on the eve of brexit is not compliant and potentially "unseaworthy" in the RCRs eyes, (even if the one in the uk was full of holes it would be compliant!)

Pre 1998 should be exempt, 1998-2021 a CE mark should be accepted Post 2021 UKCA fine... thats how it should have been written with the caveat that the boat was built in the EEA (therefore compliant at date of manufacture!) the new text is nonsense!

That really is a shocking oversight on the part of the regulators and the industry! Imagine the uproar if we had a parallel set of regulations for cars and you couldn't import something over a certain age without re-approving it! (In fact for cars, personal imports and vehicles over 10 years old don't even have to do an Individual Vehicle Approval test)!

Just one slight not of caution. Where you say that "because UKCA is a copy n paste of CE currently it will be a paper exercise for manufacturers to obtain type approval until we start to veer from the EU norms.", I think problems will arise in the interpretation of those requirements. Whilst standards writers and regulators try to draft the wording as tightly as possible, it's amazing just how differently test labs can interpret (what you thought was) an absolutely clear requirement! The EU 27 have (for cars) a "Type Approval Working Group" in which approval authorities from all Member States meet periodically to agree technical interpretations on tricky bits of legislation, so that (in theory at least) there is even application of the regulations across the EU 27. Obviously, when it comes to the UKCA process, the British authorities will be interpreting the various standards on their own...

...and they have something of a reputation for "gold plating" EU requirements already...

 

[Euphonyx]

Do these rules apply to Northern Ireland under the terms of the NI protocol, that wonderful instrument and shield for peace and reconciliation? If not, the simple solution would be brokerages in places like Bangor Marina etc. Another Brexit bonus for Northern Ireland

 

[TiggerToo]

How come I get banned for making a polite comment, using three non-random letters (A+1, W+1, S+1) and this thread is still up and no-one reprimanded?

Bogies-in-a-merry-go-round (SNOT FAIR), if you ask me.

 

[SailingEd]

Do these rules apply to Northern Ireland under the terms of the NI protocol, that wonderful instrument and shield for peace and reconciliation? If not, the simple solution would be brokerages in places like Bangor Marina etc. Another Brexit bonus for Northern Ireland

NI is part of the uk, so boats in NI can be moved to the UK if UK registered, and IIRC you can also move NI boats to ireland thanks to the NI protocol, but not the other way around.

i could be wrong on this one though as its a bit more convoluted.

 

[JayOh]

I realise that the types of boat that I am concerned with are miles away from the boats that you are discussing but never the less they are suffering more from this meaningless bureaucratic nonsense.

I am a boat builder with more than 25 years experience. I also design small sailing and rowing boats from 10 to 15 feet which, prior to the original RCD, I used to build as one-off custom boats for clients. This started with drawing tenders for old ‘big class’ classic yachts, where the original boat had long disappeared but the evidence from the cradle on the coach roof still existed. All this ended with the RCD, the cost of which made this aspect of the business untenable.

I had a forlorn hope that, come Brexit, the situation may become a little more reasonable and practical and sensible. But no, it seems that, if anything, it is even harder to wade through the treacle that is now the Recreational Craft Regulations or RCR (When said out loud, it is a most apt name for them).

Last year we were commissioned to design and build a prototype fast and exciting lug rigged, cedar strip planked dinghy. Sea trials were a resounding success and we have had a number of enquiries to build more and, following from this boat, we have been asked about building some of my more tamer designs. Unfortunately it seems that the hoops that we have to go through could, more than likely, scupper this development as well.

So, when you say that the bureaucracy of the RCR/RCD kills of British boat building, you are correct. Maybe not a problem for the big production outfits but it certainly is for us artisan builders of small, 3m to 5m one-off, custom, wooden boats.

For one thing, an owners manual for a sailing dinghy? Do we write yet another ‘How To Sail’ book? Category C, Inshore, Maximum Wind Strength Force 4? How many dinghy sailors do you know that stay ashore when it is blowing f5 plus? I consider that this area of the regulations to be unfit for purpose and has been and still is a disaster for our sector of boat the building industry. Not to mention the possible insurance implications.

 

[Wing Mark]

I realise that the types of boat that I am concerned with are miles away from the boats that you are discussing but never the less they are suffering more from this meaningless bureaucratic nonsense.

I am a boat builder with more than 25 years experience. I also design small sailing and rowing boats from 10 to 15 feet which, prior to the original RCD, I used to build as one-off custom boats for clients. This started with drawing tenders for old ‘big class’ classic yachts, where the original boat had long disappeared but the evidence from the cradle on the coach roof still existed. All this ended with the RCD, the cost of which made this aspect of the business untenable.

I had a forlorn hope that, come Brexit, the situation may become a little more reasonable and practical and sensible. But no, it seems that, if anything, it is even harder to wade through the treacle that is now the Recreational Craft Regulations or RCR (When said out loud, it is a most apt name for them).

Last year we were commissioned to design and build a prototype fast and exciting lug rigged, cedar strip planked dinghy. Sea trials were a resounding success and we have had a number of enquiries to build more and, following from this boat, we have been asked about building some of my more tamer designs. Unfortunately it seems that the hoops that we have to go through could, more than likely, scupper this development as well.

So, when you say that the bureaucracy of the RCR/RCD kills of British boat building, you are correct. Maybe not a problem for the big production outfits but it certainly is for us artisan builders of small, 3m to 5m one-off, custom, wooden boats.

For one thing, an owners manual for a sailing dinghy? Do we write yet another ‘How To Sail’ book? Category C, Inshore, Maximum Wind Strength Force 4? How many dinghy sailors do you know that stay ashore when it is blowing f5 plus? I consider that this area of the regulations to be unfit for purpose and has been and still is a disaster for our sector of boat the building industry. Not to mention the possible insurance implications.

That's really not Brexit, it's 21st century bureaucracy. Not unique to the EU or the UK. I understand it's not trivial to market bespoke boats in Oz , NZ or Canada either.

Whether it would be a good thing for the general public to be allowed to buy unproven designs and go out on the sea in a Force 5 is perhaps debatable?
AIUI, racing boats are exempt, so we a re talking about people who go out without backup of any kind?
You've only got to look at some of the small boats offered at boatshows to realise that the public need protecting, from themselves.

 

[TiggerToo]

That's really not Brexit, it's 21st century bureaucracy. Not unique to the EU or the UK.

Well, it is something that the essence of the EU was set up to avoid: hindering free movement of people within a group of nations. Just like within the UK, with the USA and other groups of nations.

Certainly not unique.

The dreaded-thing-I-cannot-mention-here-on-pain-of-banning (Long Live the Mods) simply cut some of you guys off the freedom to roam without silly red tape. Of course there are simple stupidities and iniquities elsewhere. [Inappropriate quoted content removed]

Anyhow. Enjoy the ride.

 

[JayOh]

This risk averse society that has evolved, has changed us from a nation of individualistic innovators into to a fearful bunch of sheep. It is also probably why all cars look the same nowadays.

However, I do take your point but I am a natural sceptic when it comes to bureaucracy and governmental meddling. Surely it is not beyond the wit of man to come up with something that is half way sensible, instead aiming for the lowest common denominator.

"You've only got to look at some of the small boats offered at boatshows to realise that the public need protecting, from themselves."

Originally the proponents (the BMIF, as it was known then) of the RCD were large production companies that primarily wanted a level playing field across the EU. Once the bureaucrats got going, it has turned into something that, while a laudable aim, is too dumbed down and dogmatic to deal with the variety of local conditions and associated effects. What has happened to acting on your own recognisance? Heaven forbid that people should be able to do that. Initiative and personal responsibility? A thought that is tantamount to anarchy.

The RCR/RCD does not protect the public in any way. Once they have bought their boat they are at liberty to sail or power boat anywhere they wish and in any conditions. Instead of protecting us boat builders from litigation it has the potential to open us up to a claim from anybody who is foolish enough to go out in conditions that are beyond their skill and expertise, even if those conditions are met by the regulation category.

I am fine with quality of design and build, but coming up with half baked wind and sea conditions, which have different effects in different parts of the country, let alone the world, is plain ridiculous. There are the effects of different topography, local tidal conditions or ocean swells. For example, harsh katabatic winds that are fairly common on lakes in mountain regions and can come out of nowhere and disappear just as quickly or reservoir sailing where it perfectly safe to go out in a force 5 breeze. An inshore open sea area, with a good residual swell running or wind over tide, a f4 may well be the safe option and even then could end in disaster. How about reefing, is that option mentioned anywhere in the regs? Does anybody remember what reefing is anymore?

Where I sail, on the North Norfolk coast, being out in a Northerly f4 near the bar with a spring tide running is a very dangerous place to be in for a category C or D boat and could well be the case for an A and B as well. According to these rules, that is fine, J Public has bought a boat which is regulated to operate in these conditions? The RCR says so. There are too many variables where meteorology, local tide and environmental conditions are concerned, which makes these rules totally unfit for purpose and potentially dangerous.

Why do you think that there has been a boom in kit boats? Because they are home builds with a minimum of regulation and are therefore excluded. Are the designs any better or worse? Are the home builders any more or less experienced than purchasers of professionally built boats? Not necessarily. I would say that, from meeting many of them, the proportion of skilled and experienced to inexperienced operators of home builds are about the same. Many build for the interest in craft skill alone and are not really that keen to use their pride and joy. Some designs do not readily lend themselves to kit building so that leaves a raft of good designs that, for economic and practical reasons, will not be seen.

The design brief for the prototype, high performance, traditionally rigged, sailing dinghy that we built last year, which was well received, was not intended to sail in 2m waves but is designed to sail in winds up to f6, in sheltered lagoons, creeks and locations akin to the Norfolk Broads. So where does that fit in?

No doubt I am a voice in the wilderness and we are stuck with these rules, but, I do not see why we should roll over and let government pen pushers enact regulations that do not come up to scratch, are inordinately expensive, penalise small artisan businesses and, by default preclude many fine boats from being built. Yes, this is an old argument that has been around since the inception of the RCD but that doesn’t make it any less valid.

End of rant.