Raz du Sein - wind against tide

[bbg]

For those who have made the passage of the Raz du Sein ...

I am planning a delivery for this weekend, and have to go northbound through the Raz. Current forecast is for northerly winds of 15-20 knots.
Due to the reputation, I don't want to go through when the current is at its strongest (with me). I will be shooting for slack current.

The dilemma I face is whether to shoot for slack current changing TO wind against current (i.e. changing to a northbound current), or changing FROM wind against current (i.e. changing to a southbound current).

1. If the former, I will be fighting the current all the way to the Raz (from Penmar'c). It means the overall passage will be longer, I am unlikely to arrive early, and might beat through on the last of the contrary current. If I am late (which is a possibility due to the contrary current), I will be forced to go through on a building wind against tide situation - but hopefully not too bad as my progress should improve as the current eases (and eventually turns), and I shouldn't go through too late.

2. If the latter, I will have current with me (and against the wind) to the Raz. I don't expect the seas to be too difficult until I get to the Raz. The problem is that I definitely don't want to be late, because I will then be beating into an increasing contrary current. But if I leave myself lots of time (to ensure I'm not late) the risk is that I'll arrive too early. And that is really the point of this post.

I'd like to know, from those who've been there, how bad the wind against tide situation is in the Raz say one hour (maybe an hour and a half) either side of slack.

 

[Robin]

It looks like it is springs this weekend? So go through on the last of the north going tide but do not be late! Tide goes south from memory about 45 minutes before HW Brest so you need to be through clear north by then. The rough water on the north going tide is NE of the point so keep clear west of this until you are through, but just slow down and let the tide take you through the overfalls. If you get there early and chicken out, then the outer anchorage called St Evette outside of Audierne is a good spot to re-time the Raz. There are two shallow areas (relatively) in the south approaches and it pays to avoid those if you can, our route passes between them.

The winds are flukey off the Pointe Du Raz too so there may be considerable windshifts off the land. We have been through before with strong wind over tide northerlies, it was not nice but we are still here to tell the tale. In a small boat I would play things safer.

 

[bbg]

Thanks - that confirms my plan. As you say, go through on "the last of the north going tide".

But - and this is the crucial point for me, not having been there before - assuming I have got a 15-20 knot northerly, what is "the last of the north going tide" without having too much wind over tide? Is 90 minutes (before slack) too early? Will it still be v.v. rough?

 

[VictorII]

Do be careful in case of wind shifts. In case the wind goes more to NW or increases slightly, the Raz du Sein is pretty hairy. We had a NE F4 wind a while back at the end of the N going tide, and it was wild.

If it doesn't look calm enough or the conditions worsen, wait.

 

[PeterGibbs]

For those who have made the passage of the Raz du Sein ...

I am planning a delivery for this weekend, and have to go northbound through the Raz. Current forecast is for northerly winds of 15-20 knots.
Due to the reputation, I don't want to go through when the current is at its strongest (with me). I will be shooting for slack current.

I'd like to know, from those who've been there, how bad the wind against tide situation is in the Raz say one hour (maybe an hour and a half) either side of slack.

Mid tide overfalls against strong winds are absolutely to be avoided unless in a very large vessel (the post card view of the Raz!). On the other hand, the tidal changeover is very short and runs strong again and very quickly, so timing is of the essence to minimise turbulence. Get there early and ready for the short dash through.

The shallows that throw up the overfalls are relatively short in duration: using the last of the tide with you, if you've prepared the boat and crew in advance and use the motor full on for max speed and direction you will be through the worst in 10 mins or so (which was my experience of arriving a little late on the turn) with water over the deck but no danger of broaching.

If you arrive late, miss the "slack" and can see significant breakers building ahead, do fall off and wait it out nearby - unless you feel specially lucky!

PWG

 

[Robin]

Thanks - that confirms my plan. As you say, go through on "the last of the north going tide".

But - and this is the crucial point for me, not having been there before - assuming I have got a 15-20 knot northerly, what is "the last of the north going tide" without having too much wind over tide? Is 90 minutes (before slack) too early? Will it still be v.v. rough?

Let's be sure first what you mean by 15-20kts northerly, if those are the mean speeds the gusts will likely be much greater, plus you need to add in your boatspeed and the tide speed to those to see that you could have another 15-20kts over the deck at the peak. The Raz is never slack, it changes direction at different times in different places so even at 'slack' you will inevitably find tide and quite a bit of it. 90minutes +/- will give you very strong streams and little different from the maximum.

My favoured option would be to target it to reach the mid point (off La Vielle) at say one hour before HW Brest and then play it by ear when you get there depending on wind strength and direction. You can then use the bale out option if needs be of diverting to St Evette anchorage and then tining a re-run from there. We have done just that before with NW winds around F6, sat out a tide in St Evette and gone through on the notional slack. If you have time it might even pay to have plan A as this stopover at St Evette, it is very sheltered from winds in the north and there are visitor buoys (chargeable) if you don't like to anchor. From St Evette to the Raz is only about 8 miles.

 

[TiggerToo]

..... If you have time it might even pay to have plan A as this stopover at St Evette, it is very sheltered from winds in the north and there are visitor buoys (chargeable) if you don't like to anchor. From St Evette to the Raz is only about 8 miles.

Whatever you do for your passage thorugh the Raz, I would strongly recommend this latter option. It will give you a fare better shot at getting at the Raz at your preferred time

 

[bbg]

Thanks to all. St Evette looks like a good option. I have a 65 mile passage before the Raz, so getting the timing right will be difficult. If the passage is quick (or on target) I can pick up a bouy for a couple of hours and it would let me get a little sleep before running the gauntlet. If I'm slow, I can just proceed direct.

 

[chart5011]

Cat among the pigeons time.
Depart St Evette to time passage for 5 hours after HW Brest when you will have the last of South going stream against you. The critical part of passage won't take long and as you go through the stream will be slackening and then start to go North by which time you will be through.
Tides between the Raz and the Channel du Four are not that great and a wind over tide beat to Cameret should be OK, but if concerned the Bay of Douarnenez has minimal streams.

by the way my TSA NP265 is the 1978 edition reprinted 2003, a later edition does show the Raz in greater detail but had an error in the time boxes relating Brest to Dover.

 

[Bosun Higgs]

The synoptics look more like 5 to 12 knots than 15 to 20.

Dont suppose you are in a mobo that would allow you to go outside?

 

[bbg]

To Chart 5011 - catching the last of the last of the southbound stream / first of the northbound stream doesn't look like an option time wise, unless I miss my preferred window and have to wait for a tide. I'm going to try to make sure that doesn't happen.
Bosun Higgs - yes agreed. My grib files from yesterday showed 15-20, but today (for the same window - midnight to 6 AM Saturday) show only about 10. Let's see how much it changes between now and then!
If anyone is interested I will try to do a trip report after I lose my "Raz virginity".
PS not a mobo. 21 foot sailboat with a 2.2 hp engine, so I'll have to sail through.

 

[Neil_Y]

Sunday/Monday looks like you may have more West in the wind.
http://www.yr.no/place/France/Brittany/Audierne~6452229/long.html
I've always stopped at Audiernne to time my arrival better and be able to sit out another tide if the weather looks like it is improving.

Have your hatch shut and washboards in just in case.

 

[vyv_cox]

When we made the passage heading south we were about 15 - 20 minutes late at the Raz on a middling tide, nowhere near springs. The tide was flooding hard and we had to motor flat out to get through. On the south side we thought for a while that we still might not make it, with a strong impression of motoring uphill. I would say you need to get your timing spot on, definitely not allowing 90 minutes leeway as you suggest.

 

[Robin]

To Chart 5011 - catching the last of the last of the southbound stream / first of the northbound stream doesn't look like an option time wise, unless I miss my preferred window and have to wait for a tide. I'm going to try to make sure that doesn't happen.
Bosun Higgs - yes agreed. My grib files from yesterday showed 15-20, but today (for the same window - midnight to 6 AM Saturday) show only about 10. Let's see how much it changes between now and then!
If anyone is interested I will try to do a trip report after I lose my "Raz virginity".
PS not a mobo. 21 foot sailboat with a 2.2 hp engine, so I'll have to sail through.

Be aware that the overfalls will shake the wind out of the sails regardless of wind strength so making it even harder to get through against any foul tide, at least in a favourable one you will get taken there anyway!

BTW there are inshore counter currents right off La Vielle and very close to it. We arrived about 45 minutes late on one northward passage (in company with others who had problems back in Benodet as we left) and motorsailing at 8kts in our then Westerly 33 barely made it through, yet a small French boat with an outboard whirring got round OK on the counter current. Whenever we tried to get where he was we went backwards very fast!

 

[Bosun Higgs]

If anyone is interested I will try to do a trip report after I lose my "Raz virginity".
.

For once, and unlike Lands End or Portland bill, the Raz does deserve its reputation. Its one of those places where you can get standing waves even when there is no wind. Which is not to say be frightened but equally in such a small boat and without a worthwhile engine, I wouldnt take chances.

 

[davidfox]

If anyone is interested I will try to do a trip report after I lose my "Raz virginity".
PS not a mobo. 21 foot sailboat with a 2.2 hp engine, so I'll have to sail through.

FWIW, I have been through twice and both time were unremarkable, i got myself into a bit of funk the 1st time for no reason, but I went through at exactly slack - and my boat was 42ft!

 

[Woodlouse]

Hate to say it, but I'd be waiting for less tide. Preferably in the form of taking a weeks holiday in South Brittany and waiting for neaps. Then, I would suggest as others have stopping somewhere close to the Raz so timing can be accurate, because it is absolutely critical. Last time I went though I did an overnight pit stop in Audierne, then made a run for it the following morning.

Seriously though, 20kts of wind and spring tides would have me waiting for better circumstances.

 

[ColinR]

I'm sure it deserves its reputation but the three times I have been through I timed it for slack tide and motored through on flat water with no problem at all. As has been said before it only takes a few minutes to get through. Colin

 

[john_morris_uk]

Hate to say it, but I'd be waiting for less tide. Preferably in the form of taking a weeks holiday in South Brittany and waiting for neaps. Then, I would suggest as others have stopping somewhere close to the Raz so timing can be accurate, because it is absolutely critical. Last time I went though I did an overnight pit stop in Audierne, then made a run for it the following morning.

Seriously though, 20kts of wind and spring tides would have me waiting for better circumstances.

No criticism of your seamanship, but I think that's a bit excessive on the caution front. I've been through the Raz about twenty times or more in a variety of boats from 33 foot to 55 foot over the last few years and only once had water on the decks. Its a bit bumpy sometimes and I certainly wouldn't go through in STRONG winds against tide, but so long as the weather is reasonably settled and you go through as the tide has just turned, there's nothing to be scared of even at springs. The standing waves are easy to see and you can usually go round them - although we've been known to plough straight through (hence water on the deck once). We have even been known to get all the foulies and harnesses out and sit there sweltering in the sunshine and then realise we were through and what was all the fuss about.

The time we had water on the deck, we were motoring in fairly flat water and teenage daughter was sleeping in the forepeak. I could see the standing waves so I suggested to SWMBO that she ought to pop below and tell daughter that she might get shaken about a bit. SWMBO arrived in the forepeak just in time to get a neck-full of water down her from the dorade that didn't manage to stop the few hundred gallons of atlantic that had just swept our foredeck. By the time SWMBO was back on deck we were through and out the other side. She thought that I'd done it on purpose.

The bit I've never been brave enough to do is to shoot the inshore passage through the rocks that's mentioned in a couple of the pilot books. It only saves a mile or two and I've always chickened out.

PS Further to Robin's latest post - I will emphasise again that you need to have some seamanship about your approach. Look at the wind and weather and judge what is appropriate. 90% of the time or more the Raz is fine, but I agree that it can and will bite you in the backside if you don't respect it.

 

[Robin]

I'm sure it deserves its reputation but the three times I have been through I timed it for slack tide and motored through on flat water with no problem at all. As has been said before it only takes a few minutes to get through. Colin

Have a look at this video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=GB&hl=en-GB&v=m2LeNBY_5gk&feature=related

The Raz can be a real pussycat or a real monster and as I said before there is no absolute slack water as it changes at different times in different places. The strong tides are felt from about 2-3 miles either side and the directions and rates vary, with a counter current off La Vielle as well. Rough water occurs where the strong tides meet and over the areas of (relative) shallows on a rocky bottom. I have always found, using our route plan through avoiding, by passing between, the two shallow patches SE of the point, that the roughest overfalls by far are on the NE side when northbound.

As always the usual caveat is to avoid wind over tide but as always in this area there is an extra player in the form of La Houle, the swell. Swell normally isn't a problem as you just ride it, but swell against the tide or over shallower areas is different. We once motored through the Raz in a flat calm on the last of the north going tide and had been photographing the swell breaking over the light. I had just passed the camera down to SWMBO to put away as we were through and done taking pictures. As I did a huge standing wave appeared from nowhere, broke over the deck (we had a W33 ketch then) and, despite the Avon strapped on deck, hit the sprayhood so hard it ripped right across the bottom and dumped a whole heap of water onto SWMBO down below. One wave, flat calm and on the tail end of the tide, clear through (we thought) NE of La Vielle.

Yet we have passed through many times at full flow of tide or not, wind or not, even wind over tide and wondered what the fuss was all about.

Our playground for 40 years has been from Poole, the West Country, Channel Islands and first North Brittany then for 22 years South Brittany. So our playground included the Needles, Hurst, St Catherines, St Albans, Portland Bill, Start Point, The Lizard, Alderney Race, the Swinge, Little Russel, Isle De Batz, Chenal Du Four, the Raz and Penmarc'h. By far the worst of these IMO is the Raz but like all the others it is the luck of the draw how you find it on the day after taking all the relevant factors into account.

There is a French saying about the Raz that translates roughly into 'nobody passes without fear or sorrow', both are very apt!