Raymarine again....

[Sybarite]

I have just been given an estimate for the repair of my ST2000 autopilot bought in August 2001.

More than £600 - in fact more than I paid for it new !

Due entirely to water ingress.

During that period I have only done one long trip and otherwise I have only occasionnally used it : I estimate less than 20 times.

John

PS The person giving me the estimate said that it had got water in it because I had used it when it was wet outside....

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[kimhollamby]

Who did the estimate? French dealer?

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[Sybarite]

SD Marine, Raymarine's French distributor.

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[Sybarite]

Re: meeeting with Raymarine...

<< A direct approach for response by Raymarine on such a wide spectrum of comments might be a difficult one for the company to answer if its lawyers/liability insurers caught wind of it (not because of that specific company, but because of the way things are these days). Nevertheless I will be meeting senior people from the company next Thursday and will mention comments here then.>>

Is there any feedback you can share with us Kim ?

I am going to visit SD Marine today and my position will be that either they replace/repair it under warranty or I will sue them (or Raymarine as the case may be) on the grounds of the suitability of their product for its intended purpose.

John



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[Sybarite]

Correction :

I bought it AFTER my long trip. It was the ST1000 which packed up on this trip - with water ingress...

John

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[qsiv]

I have had three ST autopilot corepacks repaired over the last 8 years on two different boats. The 7000 on the current boats has been fine. The MaxiViews have suffered from sunlight, and are difficult to read, one Multi resets itself periodically, turning off all lighting across the system.

The new boat is having B&G throughout.

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[MainlySteam]

What the builder did with ours which I think I would follow on any other boat is, while the course computer puts 12 v from its own supply onto the Seatalk bus, he also put another independant supply onto the other end of the Seatalk bus - each with their own breaker on the electrical panel. So the computer can fail totally or be taken out and the instruments all keep working.

Probably could be done with any system where the course computer normally powers the bused instruments and a loss of power might mean losing the lot. Maybe it is commonly done but just not noticed it before on other boats

We have had no problems with the ST system at all, but when boat was new the autopilot would very occasionally go down. Traced it to a slightly loose terminal in the electrical switchboard but the independant supply kept the rest of the system alive.

John

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[kimhollamby]

I think it might be worthwhile speaking with Raymarine HQ in UK direct about this. The distributor is, I suspect, taking a position that results from its problem of being stuck with the liability. The manufacturer has more of a vested interest to maintain, or improve, its reputation.

The new (as of January) CEO at Raymarine is Malcolm Miller, former Pace Technology CEO. At the very least a letter or phone call might be worth trying before resorting to legal action which will take its toll on you, whatever the justice and outcome of the situation.

If you have already corresponded with Raymarine then my apologies for suggesting it.

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[Sybarite]

Thanks Kim, I'll bear that in mind. In fact I only received the telephoned estimate this morning and so haven't done anything yet. But I am going to pay them a visit this afternoon.

As for the loss of energy - this applies to both sides and when I tell them that I'm a frustrated wanabe lawyer who does this sort of thing for fun....

I've just been looking at a French text relating to sale of goods law : (loose transalation) " In the absence of contractual stipulations, merchandise must be "loyale et marchande" a quality which the judges will independently assess, as is their sovereign right. The inherent quality of a product may be implied from or by its price..."

In other words what performance and life expectancy have you a right to expect from a £600 instrument - (designed to be used in a hostile environment) ??

John

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[Robin]

According to the advert on the back of the latest PBO just in, this American guy called Brad Van Liew could 'Kiss those guys at Raymarine' - praising his Raymarine autopilot. (Tommy Hilfiger in the Round Alone Race)

Which bit would you kiss, bearing in mind your French connection? Maybe the American phrase 'kick arse' might be more appropriate!

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[pugwash]

If Ray Marine'sadvert on the back of the new PBO (of a big round-the-world yacht thrashing through heavy seas) isn't an implication of all-weather capability, what is?

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[kimhollamby]

I'm not disagreeing that you could well have the law on your side, quite apart from the moral high ground. However (and I am writing this from having observed in, and assisted, quite a few consumer disputes over the years) if this thing can be settled nicely it will be better all around. Once it goes legal certain things have to kick in from all parties' points of view that usually makes a friendly solution impossible.

Trouble is that major companies such as Raymarine are facing all sorts of legal actions these days, some of them quite outrageous in terms of attempted liability claims. But I suspect they have to shovel all legal cases, however valid, down the same channel, into a part of the system that feels it has not done its job correctly if it does not mount a successful defence.

Whichever way you go I hope you get it sorted.

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[tome]

Kim

I've heard that a small claims court summons issued to the named CEO of the company works wonders in bypassing their legal department and settling the claim!

Regards
Tom

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[Sybarite]

Absolutely agree with you Kim. It is my experience however in France that you have to employ both the carrot and the stick if you want to get anywhere.

When I went to see them they were in the first instance quite aggressive in insisting that it was out of guarantee - by 2 days !!

When I informed them that the guarantee was neither here nor there and that I had the law on my side, they asked me to quote chapter and verse. I produced a photocopy from a legal text-book (the bit I quoted earlier) and added that as this was a well-known problem (I printed out the threads which totalled 14 pages of fine print..) on which they (as professionals) were silent, this constituted a "vice cachée (hidden fault) compounded by bad faith.

They asked for my e-mail address and said that they would see what they could do to settle the question. Already they had halved the amount quoted for the repair.

I am definitely committed to carrying through an action if necessary. I believe that they understand this. I hope that it will not be necessary and that common-sense will prevail.

John



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[petery]

In the UK, I believe that the Sale of Goods... Act, places any obligation to replace or repair on the retailer that sold you the goods and not the manufacturer. I understand some European countries have introduced 'Strict Liability' that transfers that obligation on to the manufacturer.

In the past, I used to work as a District Manager for a motor manufacturer that majored on the quality and reliability of its product in its advertising. If a customer with a problem 'out of warranty' made a credible claim on the basis that the goods were not of 'merchantable quality' or not 'fit for purpose' we ignored our published warranty rules and settled - but the customer had to persist!

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