Raggie rage. Was I in the wrong?

[DAKA]

The reply about Asymetrics above is completely correct ... get a gust and, in order to stay upright you have to bear away 20*° and accelerate very quickly.
Most of the asymetric helms will be look 0.5Nm ahead of where they are to see what the obstruction is and will treat other boats as obstructions rather than giveway vessels...

it would be really helpful for the giveway vessel to undertake their obligations as when they have their kites up these asymetric beasts really cannot do massive course changes to avoid you - ..

Not sure if this is a wind up post or not

Yesterday was a gusty day, power boat helms cant see 360 degrees at once and is mainly interested in whats ahead.

One minute there will be a sailing boat 4 knots 200m away on port quarter.......a none issue.

Then a gust comes , he accelerates to 20 knots, changes direction and shouts abusive comments.
The motor boat is clearly the stand on vessel as being overtaken, has a duty to stand on.

 

[Giblets]

Perhaps the OP should contact the HM regarding Rule 22:

22.No person shall make use of obscene, scandalous,
abusive, indecent or improper language or behaviour to any
officer of the Conservancy or to the annoyance of any
person who shall be in, upon or about the harbour, or
obstruct any officer of the Conservancy in the execution of
his duty.

 

[fireball]

Daka - as an occaisional raggie - you'll know that these boys are not doing 4 knots then 20+ a few seconds later ... they are usually >10kts once they have their kites up...

Overtaking is quite simple - it's overtaking and the overtaking vessel should keep clear ...
Crossing then it is power gives way to sail (unless ... blah blah blah ...) so the mobo helm does need to keep a good lookout - not quite 360° though ... more like 225° ? (the arc in which your port/starboard lights are visible....)

On a more gentlemanly level - if he's got a chance to should "get out of the way" a fair number of times then he's got time to take avoiding action - and so has the giveway vessel ...

 

[Sgeir]

On a serious note , the jokes banded on YBW about power giving way to sail and standing on, along with the usual jokes over a pint at the club bar can be very dangerous....

Yes. Joking aside, if there were Moths flying about at high speed in a harbour (sorry, but don't know the area), then I have to say that I have some sympathy with ricky_s on this. While he'll readily accept that he should have been keeping a 360º lookout, we've all had that scary "where-the-hell-did-that-come-from?" moment. The overtaking craft was in the wrong anyway. A little bit of tolerance and mutual respect on the water wouldn't go adrift.

 

[flaming]

Not sure if this is a wind up post or not

Yesterday was a gusty day, power boat helms cant see 360 degrees at once and is mainly interested in whats ahead.

One minute there will be a sailing boat 4 knots 200m away on port quarter.......a none issue.

Then a gust comes , he accelerates to 20 knots, changes direction and shouts abusive comments.
The motor boat is clearly the stand on vessel as being overtaken, has a duty to stand on.

Wading into this seems like a terrible idea, but here goes....
How can you say "The motor boat is clearly the stand on vessel as being overtaken" when that's far from clear from the OP's description? Were you there?

However, on the other point, I sort of agree with you.... (yes, a doctor has been called...)

The world of racing dinghies etc has moved on massively in the last 10 years or so. Many are now capable of speeds well in excess of that that their predecessors, even in the early 90s were capable. Especially the foilers, one of whom has been seen trying to drag race the redjet. (He's getting pretty close...)

This increase in speed has actually lead to a number of changes to the racing rules to take this into account, but no change in Colregs where they encounter other boats.

Problem is, it would be entirely impossible to correct under local harbour laws. Changing the rules so that fast dinghies give way to everything is a non starter, as the same basic rights have to apply in drifting conditions when they are completely unable to get out of a motor boat's way. "fastest boat keeps clear..?" but there will be situations where that's not obvious, and in my opinion the rules need to be clear, and obvious, who is keep clear at all times.

However, the good news is that most helms of these craft do not have death wishes, and most will view a slow moving vessel under power as a moving obstruction when they're up and flying.
Doesn't mean you won't find the odd exception to the rule though...

 

[DAKA]

How can you say "The motor boat is clearly the stand on vessel as being overtaken" when that's far from clear from the OP's description?

The OP missed this vital snippet from the original post

"I should add he was coming from behind as well, doesn't this make him the overtaking vessel"

Unfortunately he was a little premature (see post 4) and nearly spoiled an excellent ding dong


Would one idea to be to treat all buoyed areas as mini TSS zones, either keep to starboard or only cross when clear to do so.

Or how about all fast sailing boats must be preceded by a RIB sporting a red flag, of course that would be restricted to 8 knots

 

[DAKA]

The kids in pram dinghies need to be instructed to keep clear of motor boats in channels.

When they get older and venture out in the fairways they need to be aware that some motor boats in certain conditions are a danger and not to be messed with .

As they become instructors they need to be more responsible and not tow out a load of kids into an unrestricted fairway in the hope that a stinker will not open up as soon as the restriction ends.

Then a change in attitude may be possible in generations to come as the same kids become adolescents in charter sunsail yachts in the solent which is only one step away from becoming an MIA mid channel.

 

[flaming]

The OP missed this vital snippet from the original post

"I should add he was coming from behind as well, doesn't this make him the overtaking vessel"

Unfortunately he was a little premature (see post 4) and nearly spoiled an excellent ding dong


Would one idea to be to treat all buoyed areas as mini TSS zones, either keep to starboard or only cross when clear to do so.

Or how about all fast sailing boats must be preceded by a RIB sporting a red flag, of course that would be restricted to 8 knots

Ah, missed that. My bad.

You suggestion of "mini TSS" does sort of miss the point though, and if strictly applied would have the effect of wrecking chichester as a racing venue, especially if you're thinking about applying 90 degree crossing angles etc.

The point is that definitions of "clear" are subjective. The more sailing you do in your chosen craft, the more comfortable you get with close quarters stuff. What I might call "loads of clearance" you might regard as uncomfortably close, or vice versa. This isn't just limited to incidents between racers and non racers, newbie racers are often a little shocked at just how close the passes can be.

My advice would be, keep your manouevering as predictable as possible (i.e. don't be tempted to accelerate out of the way of one boat if there are others around that may be counting on you continuing at that speed), give way where it is possible and sensible to do so, and try to "think ahead" where the racing boats might be heading next. This last is not easy without a background in racing, but with practice comes experience.

None of this is of any use against a bloke who thinks he's entitled to right of way when overtaking though.

 

[fireball]

The kids in pram dinghies need to be instructed to keep clear of motor boats in channels.

When they get older and venture out in the fairways they need to be aware that some motor boats in certain conditions are a danger and not to be messed with .

As they become instructors they need to be more responsible and not tow out a load of kids into an unrestricted fairway in the hope that a stinker will not open up as soon as the restriction ends.

Then a change in attitude may be possible in generations to come as the same kids become adolescents in charter sunsail yachts in the solent which is only one step away from becoming an MIA mid channel.

Just how many years is it now that you been out of control in your mobo?

 

[timbartlett]

FWIW, I would like to see the discrimination between sail and power in the colregs abolished.
It would end the sail/power arguments, it would remove the need for motoring cones, and it would simplify the rules for everyone.
Don't suppose it will happen for many years yet (if at all).

 

[flaming]

FWIW, I would like to see the discrimination between sail and power in the colregs abolished.
It would end the sail/power arguments, it would remove the need for motoring cones, and it would simplify the rules for everyone.
Don't suppose it will happen for many years yet (if at all).

That is a terrible idea.

The concept of a sailing boat just barely making steerage way having to keep clear of a MOBO at 20+ knots is a non starter.

Even when fully powered up, many sailing boats hardly ever go faster than 4 knots. It's one thing to ask them to keep clear or ferry etc in ports that are relatively predictable, but to then ask them to keep clear of every fast MOBO around is a recipie for a whole lot of trouble.

 

[Fire99]

I noticed this one so thought i'd join in the party

I am a 'raggy' these days after a good number of years of being a MOBO owner and to be honest some of us 'Raggies' overlook the fact that EVERY boat is responsible for avoiding an accident. Not just the give way vessel.

I see it often with dinghy sailers in particular, where part of the 'sport' seems to be getting as close to another boat as possible without crashing.

I can't count the number of yachts I see, when i'm under power and keeping a good distance from them, decide to drift their course towards me.

IMO COLREGS work just fine if people actually read 'em and use 'em rather than their own interpretation.

Also it's worth remembering that we're all human. We all occasionally don't have our 360 degree vision switched on and occasionally, heaven forbid, make a mistake which means the person who is technically the stand-on vessel actually has to deviate a degree or two off course to avoid the accident.

 

[DAKA]

Just how many years is it now that you been out of control in your mobo?

When in large harbours I only run on one engine, saves engine hours .
Steerage is fine @ 6-10 knots.

Reverse isnt immediately available.

I turn both engines on when it gets busy but would have been caught out at the weekend by the op situation as it was gusty, one minute those boats are just a spec, next minute they are charging straight at you, I am certain the stinker becomes a target, I dont agree that he is trying to find clear water.
He might panic at the last minute but it is more a kin to the whaling boat ramming.

Perhaps it is just one or two rouge clowns in Chichester ?

 

[fireball]

When in large harbours I only run on one engine, saves engine hours .
Steerage is fine @ 6-10 knots.

Reverse isnt immediately available.

Do you still have one of these then?

Or have you upgraded and got an audio link to the men in the engine room?

 

[Giblets]

I am a 'raggy' these days after a good number of years of being a MOBO owner and to be honest some of us 'Raggies' overlook the fact that EVERY boat is responsible for avoiding an accident. Not just the give way vessel.

Have to agree wholeheartedly there. Some years ago a friend of mine trolling for mackerel in his small powered day fishing boat was t-boned by an errant windsurfer resulting in the destruction of said board. The w/s was adamant that, as he was sailing my friend had to keep clear. It even got to letters-from-solicitors stage quoting the Col Regs regarding power giving way to sail and demanding payment for the damaged board. My friend replied suggesting they refer to Rules 17(b) and 18(b)(iii) and received a very nice letter from the solicitors apologising for having troubled him.

 

[grumpy_o_g]

Really hacked off and you've been through Chichester a couple of times? Doesn't quite add up ...

I've seen this behaviour elsewhere on many occasions - I just mentioned Chichester as this was what fired up the OP and also because I was absolutely gob-smacked at the way they set their courses there.

I don't remember this as being a big issue when I sailed dinghies. In fact there was almost an acceptance that the best thing for a large boat in Burnham to do was to keep his course when faced with about 20 or so Mirror dinghies in close formation. Mind you I'm sure time has clouded the memories.

 

[fireball]

I've seen this behaviour elsewhere on many occasions - I just mentioned Chichester as this was what fired up the OP and also because I was absolutely gob-smacked at the way they set their courses there.

Hmm ... broadbrush!!

There are a couple of entities that appear to take over particular areas of the harbour - usually for start & finish lines. The HM has directed clubs to not use the whole navigable channel for start lines - and by&large this is accomodated - there are a few clubs who have little choice as their permanent marks would cause more problems if set mid channel - but these areas see less traffic anyway.

Secondly - racing courses are usually either windward/leward (sometimes with wing marks) and may use temporary buoys or 'round the cans' which make use of the permanent racing marks which are set strategically around the harbour. What isn't always obvious is that the quickest path between two marks isn't always a direct line as current has a big influence on most racing dinghies.
To make a normal 'round the cans' club race course worth while it needs to be (depending on wind strength) 5-8Nm long giving an approximate 1 hours worth of racing. For those familiar with Chi Harbour - this is from the top of Chichester Channel - Chalk Dock area, around to mid-Emsworth Channel - Marker post and back - and that's about 6Nm direct line. Of course, we could just go up and down Chichester channel 6 times - but that would get a bit boring!! So you can see the 'need' to cover quite a large area - and that's just one of the clubs ...

There's also the 'Sledgehammer to Crack a Peanut' issue here - with the thousands of harbour users there are a tiny minority of these near miss (understandings?) each year... so it's not a good idea put in place any local rule that severely penalises one (substantial) set of users because of a small minority.

 

[benjenbav]

Hi Benjenbav,

I did see a boat just behind me called Snowgoose and wondered if it was you. I am sure we did wave to you.

Well, with a clean bum and newly polished props we were slicing through the water so efficiently that my ears were bleeding (8 knots at only 1,200 rpm) so I mite easily have missed the odd hand gesture! Anyhow, I thought Kibou II was looking mighty fine.

 

[Robin]

When in large harbours I only run on one engine, saves engine hours .
Steerage is fine @ 6-10 knots.

Reverse isnt immediately available.

I turn both engines on when it gets busy but would have been caught out at the weekend by the op situation as it was gusty, one minute those boats are just a spec, next minute they are charging straight at you, I am certain the stinker becomes a target, I dont agree that he is trying to find clear water.
He might panic at the last minute but it is more a kin to the whaling boat ramming.

Perhaps it is just one or two rouge clowns in Chichester ?

If you have shaft drives and don't have a propshaft lock to stop the lazy shaft from spinning you could be damaging your gearbox? As I understand it most larger marine gearboxes do not like being trailed as there is no water or oil circulating? Might be wrong but that was what I have been told when looking at trawler yachts in the USA.

Otherwise to add my comment on some of the dinghy antics in harbours, Chichester is by no means unique because it happens in Poole and dinghy sailors in my own club in poole are often culprits. I have never understood the logic of a race officer plonking a turning mark in the centre of the marina entry channel where there is nowhere for a big boat to go without running aground, but it has been done. The reality is though that those who scream and shout are usually the dickheads at the back of the fleet, the ones at the front will plot their way more carefully, stay out of trouble and leave the rest to get hung up behind them.

 

[ricky_s]

Well, with a clean bum and newly polished props we were slicing through the water so efficiently that my ears were bleeding (8 knots at only 1,200 rpm) so I mite easily have missed the odd hand gesture! Anyhow, I thought Kibou II was looking mighty fine.

That would explain it, my bottom is very dirty and is coming out in two weeks, though 1200 gets us about 5 ish knots, though we are petrol.

By the way, the boat is Kibou III. I hope one of my I's hasn't dropped off

Will look out for you next time.