Rafting without landlines

[seayou]

Hi everyone,

I’m looking to raft up with another sailboat for an upcoming trip and I’m wondering if it’s feasible to do this without using landlines. My plan is to secure both boats to each other using fenders spring lines and dock lines, but I’m unsure if skipping the landlines is practical or safe.

Has anyone tried this?

Thanks in advance for your advice and experiences!

 

[Neeves]

I may completely misunderstand what you are trying to do . Your suggestion seems in involve dock lines - which I would understand as being to a fixed structure, for example - a dock.

I'm not sure why you want land lines if you are able deploy spring lines to the same (or similar) location as your dock lines.

It would be common to raft upto a yacht secured to a dock, assuming the owner of the dock was happy. It would also be common for one yacht to deploy an anchor and the second yacht raft up to the anchored vessel. You could also deploy an anchor from both vessels - unless the wind is likely to change - there are lots of options and pluses and minus.

Provide a bit more detail and you will receive lots of advice.

Jonathan

 

[mainsail1]

I would say that if you know the other boat and they are happy it is fine to skip shore lines in settled weather for a few hours. If there are more than two boats in the raft I would use shore lines. Overnight or longer, I always think it is best for all boats in a raft to put out shore lines at the bow and stern in case the weather changes for the worse but, again, only two boats in a raft where both are happy to take the risk may be fine.

 

[Sandy]

Are you rafting up on a pontoon, mooring or at anchor?

 

[lustyd]

I’ve never seen them do anything useful. They’re rarely tight enough so the breast lines between boats always take all the strain.
That said, some boaters get annoyed if you don’t.

 

[john_morris_uk]

I’ve been in rafts of six boats with the tide whistling through and the shore lines were certainly doing something. I’m very much ‘one of the boats that gets annoyed’ if someone rafts up outside me and doesn’t offer to put shore lines on. If you raft up to another boat it’s good seamanship and good manners to offer to put shore lines on and to rig them without complaint if the inside boat says yes please.

 

[jlavery]

I’ve been in rafts of six boats with the tide whistling through and the shore lines were certainly doing something. I’m very much ‘one of the boats that gets annoyed’ if someone rafts up outside me and doesn’t offer to put shore lines on. If you raft up to another boat it’s good seamanship and good manners to offer to put shore lines on and to rig them without complaint if the inside boat says yes please.

I there is wind or tide running, the load can build massively on the inside boat's lines. (Been there, seen it as the inside boat). It's taking all the load for the raft. If a line breaks, you're all in trouble!

I'm with @john_morris_uk on this.

Curious why you're planning ahead of time not to use shore lines. Is there a specific reason?

 

[lustyd]

I there is wind or tide running, the load can build massively on the inside boat's lines.

And in that instance it might be wise to rig up some tight shore lines, but I've never ever seen a shore line that would have taken load in such a scenario. Often they're drooping into the water they're so loose and the other lines would have to stretch double before they contributed at all.

In most circumstances the inside boat is better without the stress of multiple shorelines squeezing it against the dock. Far more likely to cause damage than a properly tied raft with springs and breasts.

Then you have the scenario where someone actually wants to go boating and the many lines have to be worked around, often removing all so boats can move about.

 

[Channel Sailor]

Though perhaps not in this context, shore lines help or are essential if an inside yacht needs to get out when no one is on board an outside yacht. Also means the lines are ready if an inside yacht wants to get out to get out when crew are on board all yachts.

A few years this was a very common requirement when cruising Normandy/Brittany French coats and uk Channel Islands. It used to be common in a few uk ports as well such as Lymington Town Quay. It might occasionally be needed in Yarmouth (Solent) when busy.

Agree with above, always have shoreline options on board. If the boats are similar sizes then use them anyway. If the inside boat is much larger size then enquire with them first.

Consider that an inside small boat might have springs secured to the shroud bases or could have very light mooring warps on small cleats.

Take care not to have your shore lines rubbing on the bow or transom of inside yachts. I sometime rig an old sheet or line with a rolling hitch on the shore line to pull a shore line away from topsides of an inside yacht.

Just in case it needs to be said, please do not walk over the cockpit or aft sections of an inside yacht, unless you have asked permission first or exceptionally to secure on an aft cleat (or run a shore line) when no one is on board. While on the subject, secure the tiller/wheel centrally as well.

 

[Mark-1]

The only reason I can think someone would ask this question is if they'd made plans to raft and didn't have suitable long lines.

If so the OP *will* need something. Either knot shorter lines or borrow on the day ("Sorry, I left my long lines in the garage."). Boats inside will be *very* willing to lend lines - it's their cleats that will get torn off! Alternatively make sure the OP is the inside boat in the raft.

Maybe it will be a short raft and a perfect flat calm on the day with no tide in which case perhaps they're not needed but even in those conditions will will be polite to inside neighbours to rig shore lines.

 

[flaming]

It's another "it completely depends" answer.

I've seen situations where a small boat is rafted outside a larger one, and it's simply impossible to get a lead to the pontoon. I've also seen the reverse where the much larger outer boat didn't bother, and with a bit of tide running it was putting serious strain on the inside boat's cleats. As the inside boat who returned to the boat to find the deserted outside boat now rafted outside I remember being distinctly unimpressed and used one of my lines as a shore line for them until they got back. To be fair they seemed fairly sheepish when they saw what I'd done and why....

 

[jlavery]

It's another "it completely depends" answer.

I've seen situations where a small boat is rafted outside a larger one, and it's simply impossible to get a lead to the pontoon. I've also seen the reverse where the much larger outer boat didn't bother, and with a bit of tide running it was putting serious strain on the inside boat's cleats. As the inside boat who returned to the boat to find the deserted outside boat now rafted outside I remember being distinctly unimpressed and used one of my lines as a shore line for them until they got back. To be fair they seemed fairly sheepish when they saw what I'd done and why....

In the real world (not sitting online pontificating like we're doing), it's damned obvious when a shore line is needed/unnecessary/counterproductive.

 

[flaming]

In the real world (not sitting online pontificating like we're doing), it's damned obvious when a shore line is needed/unnecessary/counterproductive.

Yes, completely agree.

What I often do find weird though is the way that people look at the lead to the cleats on the pontoon and go "can't do that, the next boat is in the way", so just don't. Many times I've used another line rolling hitched to the main warp then taken to a different cleat just to pull the lead away from the next boat and get a fair lead.

 

[lustyd]

Usually I look at the cleats on the pontoon and think "there's no way another rope will fit on that, with all those figure 8's!". Never mind whether the rope will lead to it

 

[johnalison]

It depends entirely on the boats, the attachment point, and the conditions. A small boat on a larger one may well not need land lines while a larger one will almost always need them. In a quiet inland place with no current and little wind lines may well be superfluous. The essential point is to have the boats effectively sprung. It is not enough to have lines to each others’ mid-cleat because this just creates a pivot point for the boats to swing round. Springs will only work effectively if they cross, and the longer the better. Just occasionally when conditions made proper springing not possible, I have sprung with crossed lines from mid-cleat to stern, but generally lines should be bows to stern on both boats, and then both boats will have the least movement.

When rafting to strangers it is always good manners to at least offer to set up shore lines, even when they are not obviously needed.

 

[boomerangben]

Funnily enough I walked past Gordon and Johnshaven harbours yesterday, both with a significant rise and fall of tide and my uncle had a boat in Scarborough on permanently rafted berth. Long dock lines for each boat and no bow/stern lines or springs for the inside boat (otherwise you get a free lift out each tide). The idea is that the whole raft moves fed/aft with the tide/wind until each boats dock line took the load. Each boat had bow and stern and perhaps spring to the next one, but the inside boat had neither to the dock. On a pontoon, there’s no issue of tide so your dock lines can be tight enough to take the load

 

[AntarcticPilot]

Part of the point of land lines is to enable the inner boat to depart without having to unmoor and remoor the outer boat. If the outer boat has a land line, it makes things much easier and may not require the outer boat to assist.

 

[[194224]]

The only reason I can think someone would ask this question is if they'd made plans to raft and didn't have suitable long lines.

Or if the "someone" asking the question isn't actually a real person. The post looks suspicious on a number of counts however I'll accept that my post may well be deleted by the mods perhaps after I've been damned for impugning the authenticity of our friend seayou.

I’m wondering if it’s feasible to do this without using landlines.

Landlines? I'm not sure what they are if not shore lines but in any event, of course it's feasible. whether it's necessary or advisable is a different matter.

Has anyone tried this?

Yes, thousands of people, sometimes it's perfectly fine, at other times and in different circumstances then perhaps "landlines" are useful.

I look forward to reading what you've learned from the "advice and experiences!" that forum member have been kind enough to post here. Perhaps post again when you're looking for help when you're considering anchoring on another upcoming trip. That should generate even more responses.

 

[Poignard]

Usually I look at the cleats on the pontoon and think "there's no way another rope will fit on that, with all those figure 8's!".

People who do that are pests who give no thought to anyone else

 

[Wansworth]

Moored up in Cowes by the sailing school on the eve of the round the island…..about six racers hanging on my aft mooring cleat on my little Mashford…..luckily I had just refitted the boat and my cleats and deck were good and strong as my plea to the boy racers to put out lines to the piles fell on deaf ears…….until I threatened to cut their lines as the ebb gathered speed…….and the beer flowed