Rafting etiquette II

[Sanderling_]

We were in Newlyn last week number 7 on a raft 8 deep, other than the FV on the inside all boats were 28 - 35' when a 45' Moody pulls onto the end. I politely asked him if he would like a hand to run bow and stern lines ashore and his reply was that as he did not have lines to reach that far he would decline my offer. My response was that he should join enough lines together to reach, using his sheets if nesessary and to not to place undue pressure on the 28' boat alongside him to which he disappeared below not to be seen til morning.

My question for all is should I have perservered in insisting that shore lines were attached?

We got our own back on him as he did not give me a chance to tell him that 5 of the raft were off at 7.00 am the following morning - he did not look too pleased when he was knocked up!!

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[bedouin]

There is no way I would allow a 45' Moody to raft alongside a 28' boat, irrespective of whether he deployed shore lines!

If I were feeling generous, and the boat alongside was bigger, I might volunteer to let him come inside me.

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[flaming]

Agree,
more than about 10' difference is simply too much. Especially with a heavy boat like a Moody.

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[Talbot]

45' against a 28' The guy must have sh*t for brains. The small boat was very lucky not to be damaged, if there had been any tension on the lines, it is very probable that the cleats would not have been man enough to take the weight. My response would have been to tell him to go away and find someone his own size. And in any case I would not have accepted no lines to the shore. Personnally might have found it necessary to leave at about 0530 (for the tide of course) /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

This is a particular soap box of mine, the use of lines to the shore when rafting up. Not to do so is totally unseamanlike and unacceptable.

rant over

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[flaming]

I would like to venture the opinion that shore lines are not always the correct answer. Often you get rafts of boats very close together. In this instance shore lines from the 4th/5th/6th boat will be almost perpendicular to the pontoon. So when loaded they will actually do next to nothing to stop the raft moving fore and aft. Instead they just put pressure on the inside boats. Ideally of course there should be a good angle to the pontoon, but then if there's that much space you'd normally just moor in it.........
Another option is properly set up springs between the boats. Not ideal but good enough for most settled weather rafts in sheltered harbours.

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[Sunnyseeker]

Not on really, re arrange the raft to put him inside, or he goes somewhere else... his choice.
I've seen fittings broken on small inside yachts when only a light breeze pushes the raft fore and aft. Spring loads are huge and often badly led and bend stansions.

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[maxi]

Re: flaming

Agree with flaming that shorelines at too great an angle to the raft do not contribute much to the security of the raft, BUT, they should be there so that if others wish to leave the raft there are lines available to re-moor the outer boats.
The alternatives are to cast the outer boat adrift (not on), take him to sea with you or unreeve his halyards for use as mooring lines, both the latter have a very interesting effect on useless sods like your Moody owner.
Moral, Always deploy shore lines.

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[JR_Hamble]

I think you should have told him to clear off!

I'm sick and tired of poor seamanship, and that's exactly what the guy was demonstrating.

I was in the Bag at Salcombe the week before last, on the inside of a raft for 3 nights. Three different neighbours for each night, all of which had to be asked to put out shore lines, and all seemed rather indignant! ........... None seemed to think that the 2x knot spring tide was anything for me and my cleats etc to worry about. One guy, only had one spring on i.e. two brest lines for and aft and one spring, he'd have definitely hit the raft in front when the tide turned!, and he had another boat outside of him, basically not secure either, as they had no shore lines......... another had tied (in my absence) his spring onto my jib sheet traveller, rather than use my centre cleat................what hope is there. I for one will never hesitate to ask someone to move, or let me out if they are endangering people / boats.

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[Evadne]

Re: flaming

I was once in Fecamp, all the pontoon berths in the harbour were full and a number of boats were rafted up on the only two available pontoon ends. Some sort of annual jolly from a well known Brighton yacht club apparently. We joined the lesser one at 3 am, more than ten deep, but didn't run shore lines. The town was awoken next morning by the last guy on the other pontoon with shorelines threatening to cast everyone outboard of him adrift. He was about No. 6 or 8, I think, and he must have had at least six other yachts hanging off his cleats.

We snuck off and found a berth between two of the pontoons, before starting breakfast. It was a flat calm at the time, one of the reasons it took us so long to get from Rye to Fecamp, and I'm not sure that anyone was in the right. Maybe we should have laid anchors at the outer edges of the raft? The two rafts were too far apart to cross link. Shorelines on the 8th, let alone the 13th boat would have done absolutely nothing but there was nowhere else to go.

If it was Yarmouth the HM would have hung a sign on the pierhead and turned half the yachts away, but they don't do that sort of thing in France. All I do know is that shouting at all and sundry got nothing done and made the bloke look like a plonker.

In his place I'd have been tempted to slip out of the raft and take up residence on the end. Sauce for the gander and all that. It was the first time I had appreciated the advantages of a narrow beam (on the boat, sadly, not the skipper) that enabled us to fit into a gap between two yachts on pontoons. I've done it once or twice since but I'm not sure it would be possible now; today's AWBs have even greater beam (this was in 1986) so the gap would now be impossibly tight.

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[JR_Hamble]

Not so, they'll stop the raft from rolling backwards, or forwards, take the pressure off of a single boat's cleats, and ensure that the raft has laods distributed more evenly - no exeptions, shore lines are imperative, especially on a big raft.

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[StugeronSteve]

Shore lines from a long way out can be as useful as a chocolate frying pan, but they do demonstrate seamanship and consideration for the property of others. If a boat isn't equipped with ropes long enough for the job (spliced together if necessary), I would suggest that it isn't properly equipped to go to sea.

I have seen big rafts tie the outer boats together end to end, with the two extremities running lines to stabilize the sway (goodness knows what strain was going on their cleats), but this has been in the Cove, at Weymouth, out of most of the tide.

I have also had the delight of having my boat's arse lifted out of the water by one prat's shorelines. He left one tucked under the outboard on my last boat, took in the slack and made fast to piles. Tied goes out and up I go. We had words!

<hr width=100% size=1>Think I'll draw some little rabbits on my head, from a distance they might be mistaken for hairs.

 

[Talbot]

shore lines from the outer boats are not designed to stop the fwd/aft movement, that is the role of the springs. They are there so that they help to stabilise the movement in/out from the pontoon.

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[BustinAround]

Never mind stopping the fore-aft movement, shore lines are for stopping things like this happening:

Last cowes week I hade the joy of watching a french skipper halfway in a ten deep raft stand up and say "I'ma goooing noow", and when nobody responded he calmy stepped onto the deck and untied the outside boats from his cleats...


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[Sunnyseeker]

Why has no body suggested re organzing the raft?? weve done this several times even interestingly leaving boats in pairs and motoring them round together, then who ever has caused the shuffle gets a few bottles of wine opened...if we tied up to a boat with no body on board we would always have a bottle of wine for them when they returned, the same happend to us several times...new neighbours and a bottle to share.
If any body said no, we politely said sorry weve got engine trouble, then had to take the engine cover off for 5 mins after we'd tied up, and given them a bottle of wine, of course. Weve never had a problem??
Oh and shore lines yes definately

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[DJE]

Re: flaming

Worst I have ever seen was on the waiting pontoon outside Ouistreham last summer. Our 29 footer was outside a 25ft French boat and we had shorelines on. By the time the lock opened we had 8 boats outside us and none of them had shore lines. The last 3 on the raft were all English and all over 35ft long. It was a calm evening and I am sure that it felt fine on the end of the raft but the effects of current in the river and surge from passing ships was threatening to rip out my deck cleats. When I asked them to put on shorelines the first reaction was "Sorry we don't have a line long enough" (Seems like a good reason not to join the raft IMHO.) After much complaining I got someone to put on one line and even then I had to lend him one of mine to tie on to the end of it. No doubt they all thought I was making a fuss about nothing but I have never seen lines pulled so tight.

<hr width=100% size=1>Better to keep one's mouth shut and be considered a fool than open it and remove all possible doubt.

 

[dralex]

It's very refreshing to here somebody coming up with nice suggestions, especially the wine. I like niceness and there's not enough of it. I was in Fowey last year and offered to lend my tender and outboard to some guys to go ashore because there's was duff. They didn't need it in the end, but came back with a bottle of wine for me later saying " we've never had such a nice gesture"

Let's have more niceness and wine drinking.

<hr width=100% size=1>Life's too short- do it now./forums/images/icons/wink.gif

 

[Jools_of_Top_Cat]

Rafting oooop north

We don't have to raft very often oop north. When we do it is often through desire, i.e. boats cruising in company want to be together for party etc.

When I do raft I have a problem if the wall etc is drying and I am alongside a 30ft bilge keeler etc. I only draft 2' 3" and would end up looking up at them. A couple of months ago I had to go on the wall alone away from the visitors moorings at Porthmadog as the rafting boats were 2 deep but all mono's. I slid up and asked if one boat a 20" bilge keeler could leave the wall and join the end of the raft so I could come alongside.

He refused, I think he just thought I wanted a nice wall mooring to myself, not so, if you see a catamaran approaching drying raft please give it some consideration. Also don't be too fast to raft onto a catamaran unless you carry a ladder to get off your boat and onto his deck. This will allow you to inspect the damage to your hull from his stanchions.

On a wet mooring things are obviously more equal. Though I have noticed people do like to raft onto me, no doubt it is (a)Easier as I am more 'square' and therefore easier to make lines to, a little like mooring to the pontoon. (b) a nice stable platform for getting to shore. (c) I find more often than not people always go around my stern deck, I am amazed by this as it is quite narrow, I wonder how they will cope now with my windgen spinning away?

When I enter a harbour I always ask to be inside the raft i.e. on the wall, I do this as I have a dog who we often lift up the wall or take ashore via pontoons for walks. Many skippers get very upset if I cross their boat with a dog, even if I carry him. We had two and this made things even more fun for a time. So far the HM's have always put me on a wall if they can. How do people cope with dogs if they are the 9th boat in a raft, do you launch the dinghy?

<hr width=100% size=1>Julian

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[Sanderling_]

In my case it was mid evening when we returned aboard to find the Moody on the outside. By that time most of the other crews had gone for the evening so suggesting a reorganisation of the raft was out of the question. I did suggest to the skipper that he might rather like to go alongside a rather rusty FV further down the quay but he also declined that. Shore lines are important as it relieves the pressure on inside boats cleats, even in Newlyn where there is no current there was quite a bit if turbulance as mant of the FV's set off at 3.30am.

Thanks for your comments I obvously need to be less polite in future. If you are alongside some grumpy young(ish) fart next week, it might just be me!

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[Evadne]

I remember doing this in Weymouth one summer: those of us going West at 5 am were somewhat scattered so I, and others, suggested we reorganise so all were on the same raft and those who were staying or going East got a lie-in. The result was a bit like herding cats, especially when 3 more boats turned up in the middle of the manuevre, but it worked.

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[StugeronSteve]

Funny feeling I will be doing a ssimilar thing in a few days time. Looks kike it will be an early departure for Dartmouth on Leg 3 of the Hols.

<hr width=100% size=1>Think I'll draw some little rabbits on my head, from a distance they might be mistaken for hairs.