Radio procedure when no reponse (From avoiding big ships thread)

Uricanejack said:
Trouble is while they all know each other and what they are all talking about its not all ways clear to an outsider.
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Looks like when we were a group of kids and invented distorted coded languages to understand each other without letting others understand anything

"I still have one language with my cousin", would be "I list veah noe guangeal twih ym soucin" :D


To anyone wanting to practice VHF listening while sitting at home, this link streams Solent VHF ch11, 12, 16..

http://www.ship-tracking.co.uk/Radio/flash.html
 
fisherman said:
I have heard an American warship calling vessels as much as 12nm ahead to make a safe passage, he kept up a constant stream of calls.
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It's a case of might-is-right. The US Navy seem to think they have a large moving exclusion zone around their ships which transcends IRPCS or even common sense. Threatening to fire on the Kilcreggan ferry, incidentally the stand-on vessel, being one example. The "official" explanation later was an open-mike error during a training exercise.
 
Roberto said:
Looks like when we were a group of kids and invented distorted coded languages to understand each other without letting others understand anything

"I still have one language with my cousin", would be "I list veah noe guangeal twih ym soucin" :D


To anyone wanting to practice VHF listening while sitting at home, this link streams Solent VHF ch11, 12, 16..

http://www.ship-tracking.co.uk/Radio/flash.html
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Thanks for that, listening on a tablet now :)
For winamp
http://usa2-pn.mixstream.net:8224/

http://usa2-pn.mixstream.net:8002/
 
awol said:
It's a case of might-is-right. The US Navy seem to think they have a large moving exclusion zone around their ships which transcends IRPCS or even common sense. Threatening to fire on the Kilcreggan ferry, incidentally the stand-on vessel, being one example. The "official" explanation later was an open-mike error during a training exercise.
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I had a friend who was into his navy type stuff and could reply to the US Navy number by there name. He enjoyed it "This is US Warship calling..." "USS Enterprise this is xxx..." apparently they got quite upset :D
 
awol said:
It's a case of might-is-right. The US Navy seem to think they have a large moving exclusion zone around their ships which transcends IRPCS or even common sense. Threatening to fire on the Kilcreggan ferry, incidentally the stand-on vessel, being one example. The "official" explanation later was an open-mike error during a training exercise.
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Coming across the Little Minch from the Outer Isles some years ago, I heard a loud imperious female voice on the VHF, "Vessel, bearing somethingº, range something miles, this is US Warship......"

A voice said, "Lady on warship, bearing and range from where?":rolleyes:
 
Is it an apoopcr...acropol..true story that a US warship passing eastward in the channel identified the west Solent, then rounded the IOW thinking he was entering the Thames?
 
I rather liked the story of a convoy escort leader, approaching the USA, bringing the first convoy across after the US entered WW2.

Out of the west emerged a warship flying the stars and stripes.

From its bridge morse flickered.

The signalman handed the Captain the transcribed signal.

"Welcome to the USA. Follow me into harbor."

The Captain gave the signalman the reply to send.

"What a strange way to spell harbour."
 
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SimonFa said:
Being ex-Royal Signals its automatic for me to respond with "nothing heard, out" whenever I don't get a response. I think this is very important on a shared system as someone could be waiting for a conversation to end before starting their own. It also lets the person you are calling know that you didn't get the response as opposed to just failing to acknowledge.

I'm surprised something similar isn't mandatory under Colregs or other VHF licensing rules or similar. Come to think of it I don't remember this being discussed on my VHF course.
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Its not in the ColRegs because the ColRegs do not consider VHF as a means for preventing collision at sea.

onesea said:
I have never used nothing heard, then I will be turning the radio down more if it becomes common round the solent there is enough inane chat....
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Well clearly you don't listen! It is very commonly used by CG when trying to locate a missing / overdue vessel. Their standard protocol is to call:
Vessel Name, Vessel Name, Vessel Name this is XX CoastGuard (possibly repeated), Channel 67, over.
Wait 3 minutes
Vessel Name, Vessel Name, Vessel Name, Vessel Description & Helm Name this is XX CoastGuard, over
Wait 3 minutes
Vessel Name, Vessel Name, Vessel Name, Vessel Description & Helm Name this is XX CoastGuard, over
Wait 1 minute
Vessel Name, this is XX CoastGuard, Nothing Heard. OUT.

Then depending how worried they are (or what other means they may have for contact) that will be followed by a PAN PAN requesting information from any vessels.

If you are a vessel between the CG aerial and that boat you may well be able to relay and should probably offer after the second call.

Even if they don't issue a PanPan I'd suggest when you get to nothing heard if you have any information about that vessel (e.g. you saw it earlier that day, know what way it was headed etc) you should make contact with CG and offer that information, they will have lots of big stuff on AIS and I've heard them ask a navy vessel and a ferry who were in a specific area where they thought a boat might be to relay, so you telling them it was last seen at XYZ will help them find someone else to relay even if you cant. If CG doesn't need it they will just say thanks and move on, if they do need it they will be very grateful.

To replicate all that when calling a ship for collision avoidance means you need 10 minutes plus time to do something anyway. Will take about 15 seconds to give 5 long blasts and await a response. No response - do something.

Ional said:
Off the South West coast the navy often do not reply. At least twice this summer (and in previous years) on the way to from Plymouth to Falmouth we heard Navy warnings of live firing, with a message to call the warship if in the area on channel 83. We did. No answer, try again and again. Then on 16. Nothing heard. We can see the warship, the smoke, and hear the firing and we appear to be in the way..........

Each time I have resorted to telephoning the coastguard, just in case my set has a problem, though we have heard from boats in harbour that we were loud and clear! They then contact the warship on 16, who then, and only then say they will speak to me.

We have a visual on you they say, and we are stopping firing for lunch/tea/ whatever.....it does not give one any confidence in their operators. I have been so frustrated by this I spoke 2 years ago to a high ranking FOST officer (training), who apologised and said it would be followed up. It has not changed.

What should one do?
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If it was a firing range you'd normally be expected to call range control BEFORE entering the firing range, but as far as I know the Falmouth to Plymouth section is a Military Practice Area rather than a range, it has no restrictions on entry.

Would expect that announcement on 16 is a DSC call? In which case do you know their MMSI? Use it.

Bear in mind modern weaponary can pin point within a metre or so. So while you may feel at risk they may be happy that a couple of miles off you pose no harm.

But if they ask for contact on 83 they should respond. Why do you phone the CG rather than call them on 16?


Blue Drifter said:
Each to their own! Inane chat is a separate issue, here on the West Coast of Scotland there is not a huge amount of traffic and social type chat (offer fishermen with a rich vocabulary or yachts sailing in company giving Sitreps and arranging RVs) normally takes place on working channels.

I agree that it would not be good practice to call a working ship unnecessarily.
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Even in the solent there is not that much chat. A hideous amount of radio checking with CG on 16 which should be direct on 67 in Solent. But very little "Bobby d'ya fancy goin' tae pub later'" If anyone does do any of that on 16 (maybe once or twice in a day at most) Solent CG fairly quickly jumps on them and sends them off to a working channel. Likewise they will occasionally respond to someone calling a marina on 16 and tell them where they need to be.

lw395 said:
I think the correct procedure is simply to wait and listen, then repeat the original call after an appropriate interval.
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Correct. The procedure would be to call, wait 3 minutes, call again, wait 3 minutes call again then wait for a longer period. Depending on urgency and other traffic it MAY be acceptable to reduce the 3 minutes to 1 minute. But it seems sensible to declare that you have heard nothing so the other party knows why the call not then proceeded to a discussion.

The other party should respond by acknowledging your call and expecting a response. Since he does not get a response, either he never heard our call or he never heard your reply, so calling 'nothing heard' serves no purpose.
Every transmission should be acknowledged, except the final one which ends in 'out'.
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As others have explained "Nothing Heard" is used because the range of the two ends of the system may not be the same. A handheld may be able to hear a tall mast transmitting at 25W but the tall mast not the other way. They may need to tweak their squelch. Nothing heard basically says I'm not ignoring your response I'm not hearing it, if you are calling me I cant hear it and you might want to try calling me in a bit...

A1Sailor said:
I've always thought "Nothing heard - out" with or without "listening channel xyz" was standard practice. Silly me. :p

EDIT: How do you contact a ship, whose name you know but MMSI you don't, by DSC? Or do ships now have their MMSI displayed in big letters?
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LadyInBed said:
I don't have DSC and as said above I have never had a problem contacting a ship by name.
Point to note: AIS shows a ships MMSI long before its name is shown (well that's what mine does).
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Correct - name only transmitted every 6 minutes, MMSI is on every transmission which can be a few seconds apart depending on speed and course.

lw395 said:
Never heard it from a professional.
Never seen it in a respectable book or document from any of the authorities.
Does no seem to be common practice in the English channel.
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Listen to Solent CG (or Portland or probably any other CG along the channel) when they've lost someone... It is used. It is easily understood.
Would I use it calling a ship - possibly not - but then I wouldn't be calling a ship for collision avoidance normally! The one time I can see VHF being useful in this setting would be if the ColRegs meant a ship might be planning to make a change of course to avoid me but I am planning to change course as part of my navigational plan anyway especially if they might end up turning to where I want to go! No response on VHF I'd revert to the ColRegs.

lw395 said:
I guess it serves as an invitation to a third party to relay the conversation.
I appreciate life is a little different down here compared to the wilds of the East Coast or Scotland, most of the area covered by my nearest CG aerial has 3G coverage..
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Possibly but my phone will be in a waterproof bag in a grab bag probably switched off. So doesn't matter if I'm in the Solent or some place remote off the west coast CH16 is my primary means of initial contact. I'd be very pleased to have another vessel relay for me if that's what's needed. It is very noticeable how often I can only hear half a conversation.

Babylon said:
On one channel crossing a few years ago, I had an immediate response from a "big grey ship in position xxxx yyyy" who turned out to be a US Navy vessel on an anti-submarine exercise who immediately replied and altered course to avoid me.

The problem is that this - in my own experience - is dangerous. On the return channel crossing from the example given above (which had given me false confidence in ships' readiness to respond to VHF comms), I tried to communicate with a "big red ship in position xxxx yyyy heading east" who was on a collision course. Bu66er all response is what I got! By the time I'd finished trying to raise him twice on Ch 16, I found myself in a very close quarters situation. It was probably only our mains'l flicking over in an emergency gybe that alerted him to our presence at which point he executed an emergency turn to starboard at 20kts. I've never seen a ship list quite so steeply…!
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If you are going to use VHF for Col Avoidance you absolutely must give yourself enough time to take avoiding action before getting into a close quarters situation. If a ship is doing 18kts and it takes you 5 minutes to take avoiding action and you are travelling at 6kts, you need to take avoiding action AT LEAST 2 NM away. If you want to allow 3 minutes to make contact on VHF and agree a plan you need another 1-2 NM of distance. Which means they are 4NM away from you when you call. I think I'd struggle to read a name and I also think there could be more than one RED ship in that approximate location. AIS would solve it as you'd have an MMSI to DSC them. But no matter what you need to decide a point at which you will take avoiding action and then take it irrelevant of what happens on VHF etc.

As a guide you'll find if a ship has seen you and is already working on a plan to avoid you they may well respond on VHF to avoid you doing anything stupid that stuffs up their plan. If a ship hasn't yet seen you, and particularly if its not called by name they may not take action. So you may believe your VHF call works but that ship was already going to take action.
 
ShinyShoe said:
Its not in the ColRegs because the ColRegs do not consider VHF as a means for preventing collision at sea.


Well clearly you don't listen! It is very commonly used by CG when trying to locate a missing / overdue vessel. Their standard protocol is to call:
Vessel Name, Vessel Name, Vessel Name this is XX CoastGuard (possibly repeated), Channel 67, over.
Wait 3 minutes
Vessel Name, Vessel Name, Vessel Name, Vessel Description & Helm Name this is XX CoastGuard, over
Wait 3 minutes
Vessel Name, Vessel Name, Vessel Name, Vessel Description & Helm Name this is XX CoastGuard, over
Wait 1 minute
Vessel Name, this is XX CoastGuard, Nothing Heard. OUT.


Listen to Solent CG (or Portland or probably any other CG along the channel) when they've lost someone... It is used. .
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So it's a protocol used when trying to contact a vessel on a fairly long time basis.
Not relevant to collision avoidance really.
More to do with overdue vessels.

I think on the whole there are very, very few collisions that actually occur but would have been avoided had the yacht reached for the VHF.
If you google for it, you may find the classic case of a yacht asking a ship what its intentions were,
the ship replied:
Intend to navigate according to colregs, I trust you will do the same.
 
lw395 said:
I think on the whole there are very, very few collisions that actually occur but would have been avoided had the yacht reached for the VHF.
If you google for it, you may find the classic case of a yacht asking a ship what its intentions were,
the ship replied:
Intend to navigate according to colregs, I trust you will do the same.
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Not uncommonly heard in the Solent often in less words and sometimes commercial to commercial vessels.
"Big Ship this is Small Ship, do you wish us to pass to your starboard, over"
"Small Ship this is Big Ship, NEGATIVE. Col Regs, red to red, OUT"

Have heard that at least twice. Couldn't actually say if it was Big and Small ship! But they were commercial traffic.
 
Many years ago while in Norfolk Virginia.

I used to listen to one particular lady USCG operator with a very seductive voice who always ended her transmition. Very sweetly with, “Norfolk Off”

It might be my British ear was not quite tuned in to her accent, I was sure she was saying something else.
I suspect she knew it to.
 
ShinyShoe said:
If you are going to use VHF for Col Avoidance you absolutely must give yourself enough time to take avoiding action before getting into a close quarters situation. If a ship is doing 18kts and it takes you 5 minutes to take avoiding action and you are travelling at 6kts, you need to take avoiding action AT LEAST 2 NM away. If you want to allow 3 minutes to make contact on VHF and agree a plan you need another 1-2 NM of distance. Which means they are 4NM away from you when you call. I think I'd struggle to read a name and I also think there could be more than one RED ship in that approximate location. AIS would solve it as you'd have an MMSI to DSC them. But no matter what you need to decide a point at which you will take avoiding action and then take it irrelevant of what happens on VHF etc.
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Absolutely! That was a big lesson for me on my first channel crossing as skipper.

I've now fitted a DSC radio with integral AIS screen, so I can raise any 'problem' vessel by DSC alert without fuss.
 
ShinyShoe said:
Not uncommonly heard in the Solent often in less words and sometimes commercial to commercial vessels.
"Big Ship this is Small Ship, do you wish us to pass to your starboard, over"
"Small Ship this is Big Ship, NEGATIVE. Col Regs, red to red, OUT"

Have heard that at least twice. Couldn't actually say if it was Big and Small ship! But they were commercial traffic.
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That kind of thing is commonly heard on Ch11.
It is usually cross channel ferries, one inbound, one outbound. One may be near stationary, either waiting for a berth or waiting for a second inbound to clear the narrow section of the channel.
Due to the waiting vessel being off the main line of the channel up harbour or out by outer spit, it is not unknown for them to pass green to green, which is why they ask.
Also the IoW ferry inbound joining the channel at the swashway will sometimes go green to green with an outbound cross channel.
But this is a port control situation, not meeting in open water. None of the vessels can do anything without direction from QHM.
 
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