Radar Target Enhancer (RTE)

[[2574]]

I had a SeaMe RTE on my last boat, the new to me boat now forces consideration again of whether the considerable investment (and adding weight at the very top of the mast) is worthwhile. There is a very good thread dated 2012 on here where generally the opinions were positive about the benefits of RTEs.

Fast forward on eight years and it seems that SeaMe no longer manufactures their unit and the only option is Echomax who do a dual band RTE. The world has also changed with the widespread adoption of AIS. I am surprised that Echomax is the only product in the marketplace - which points to low/no demand for the product. Maybe folk now think the RTE technology is now surpassed by AIS/MARPA?

Opinions please?

 

[pvb]

The one display which virtually every ship's watchkeeper will be paying attention to is the radar. So making sure you show up on that is paramount. If you transmit AIS, it may or may not get noticed.

 

[Poey50]

I fitted an Echomax dual band this season. I find it helpful to make a mental note in two categories - ways I can 'see' other boats, and ways other boats can see me. Echomax scores highly in the second of these as pvb says but with an alarm fitted it should also assist in 'seeing'. That would be valuable, say, when snatching some sleep single-handed in a quiet area for shipping without the power demands of setting a guard zone on radar.

 

[Yellow Ballad]

I had an RTE on my shopping list till very recently when I found out (last week) that it doesn't trigger very will with the newest (last 10 years or so) Solid state/FMWC/Broadband radars which I imagine most ships now use. To the point you're talking a trigger range of about 2nm which isn't that far in my eyes.

I think I'll be putting the money towards an actual radar so I can use it in bad weather to see others. (I already transmit AIS).

 

[differentroads]

I'm with pvb. I only have AIS receive so rely on my SeeMe to be seen electronically. I call up ships when I want to know they have seen that we are going to be in proximity and they report a good radar contact from me. I admit that I don't ask them if they would have seen me if I had a class B AIS though. By then I'm working out if I should make a course change, even if I would be stand on vessel if it got to a collision risk. Officers of the watch seem perfectly comfortable with me passing in front of them by half a mile. I'm not. I want to be passing under their stern by twice that distance. In those sort of circumstances I call them back and tell them I am making a manouvre.

But if my SeeMe went kaputt I'd probably replace it with an AIS transceiver. Mix of cost and unconcious peer pressure in my thinking. I'd still rather have an RTE though, at least until enough merchant mariners have assured me that Class B AIS is as good. The only one I've talked about it to is on the bridge of a fast ferry and at his speeds he said its eyeball first then radar

 

[Black Sheep]

I had a SeaMe RTE on my last boat, the new to me boat now forces consideration again of whether the considerable investment (and adding weight at the very top of the mast) is worthwhile.

I'm not sure the RTE needs to be at the top of the mast? If you rail mount it, at 2m height it should pick up a 10m ship's radar at 10 nautical miles. Which sounds reasonable to me, though possibly only 30 minutes away at max closing speed. Putting it at the top of a 12m mast only increases distance to 15nm; worth having but maybe not worth the weight, windage, and inaccessibility.

Not responding to wideband radars might be a more serious problem - how prevalent are they in commercial vessels?

 

[[2574]]

Thanks for the trig, I agree, better mounted on the taffrail - though I note the Echomax is a monster thing, about 700mm long, wouldn’t do much for aesthetics.

 

[Black Sheep]

Thanks for the trig, I agree, better mounted on the taffrail - though I note the Echomax is a monster thing, about 700mm long, wouldn’t do much for aesthetics.

Don't tell anybody, but last year I actually had mine "installed" just sitting in the forepeak! In this case, partly because I didn't want to advertise expensive equipment in my small tatty boat (it says ECHOMAX in big letters up the side). I was only doing coastal sailing that year, so the range wasn't an issue.
But 700mm - only a bit over 2 feet... shouldn't be too bad on a decent sized boat? But you might care more about aesthetics than I do (in fact that's a near certainty!)

 

[Gary Fox]

I had an RTE on my shopping list till very recently when I found out (last week) that it doesn't trigger very will with the newest (last 10 years or so) Solid state/FMWC/Broadband radars which I imagine most ships now use. To the point you're talking a trigger range of about 2nm which isn't that far in my eyes.

I think I'll be putting the money towards an actual radar so I can use it in bad weather to see others. (I already transmit AIS).

I think most ships still use 'normal' radar, not FM. You're right, FM doesn't work with normal radar, and can't see Racons and SART's. (And some other thing which has slipped my memory?) An Echo-Max, or ship's X-band or S-band radar, won't notice your FM radar.

The great thing about an Echo-Max is that 99.9% of ships have radar permanently switched on in the bridge, most helmsmen from any culture will have an inkling what it means, and the sharply defined RTE paint will be seen by any working ARPA.
Plus, you merely need to switch it on, and it silently does its job with tiny power consumption and no attention. (Check the LED is glowing at change of watch.)

Radar or RTE? On a yacht, if it's one or the other, then definitely RTE; but if you have room, power and trained crew for a radar in addition, then the latest, smallest FM version would be nice to have.

 

[Gary Fox]

I was also wondering about the lack of choice of RTE's available.
They are brilliant, but I guess the AIS , with its illusion of omniscience appealing to the internet generation, has pulled the rug from under the market.?

 

[Roberto]

Example of a ship not transmitting AIS (the screen on the combined vhf/receiver does not show any target), possibly not receiving my transmission either, whereas it is visible on the radar at about 12nm, and also triggers the Echomax. FWIW, I have seen ships through RTE and not Ais, but never seen ships only on ais and not on the RTE, apart those at 30+nm.
The echomax is triggered also by one's own radar, though in this case I started my radar after the rte beeped for the ship, as I did not see anything on Ais.
RTE antenna on the stern gantry, about 4m asl.

 

[jamie N]

I've an RTE & AIS transponder on my Folkboat, total cost £800. I laugh at the boats I see, the standard Jeaneau/Benetau yachts which are really very nicely turned out, and more expensive than ever I could afford, but to see some of them with £20's worth of radar reflector hanging off a spreader is quite ridiculous.
The cost of my stuff is about the cost of a mid range set of waterproofs, so it's a bit negligent not to have them, in my mind.
Each to their own of course.

 

[stuartwineberg]

I have a dual band RTE (pretty sure its an Echomax). In good viz in the Channel I leave it off (battery miser) but activate it if I see a large vessel and it is very interesting to see some of the sudden changes of course it generates in vessels on a closing path. I have an AIS receiver which was on the boat when I got it but if I was starting again would definitely have a transceiver.

 

[RobbieW]

I think most ships still use 'normal' radar, not FM. You're right, FM doesn't work with normal radar, and can't see Racons and SART's. (And some other thing which has slipped my memory?) An Echo-Max, or ship's X-band or S-band radar, won't notice your FM radar.

I'd agree with your assumption. Theres no benefit for 'big' ships to use FM RADAR, they arent power constrained and can carry a large array to get the definition

 

[Gary Fox]

I have a dual band RTE (pretty sure its an Echomax). In good viz in the Channel I leave it off (battery miser) but activate it if I see a large vessel and it is very interesting to see some of the sudden changes of course it generates in vessels on a closing path. I have an AIS receiver which was on the boat when I got it but if I was starting again would definitely have a transceiver.

Yes we did that in the Baltic, you can make 100,000 tons of steel alter course by touching a button

 

[Yellow Ballad]

I think most ships still use 'normal' radar, not FM. You're right, FM doesn't work with normal radar, and can't see Racons and SART's. (And some other thing which has slipped my memory?) An Echo-Max, or ship's X-band or S-band radar, won't notice your FM radar.

The great thing about an Echo-Max is that 99.9% of ships have radar permanently switched on in the bridge, most helmsmen from any culture will have an inkling what it means, and the sharply defined RTE paint will be seen by any working ARPA.
Plus, you merely need to switch it on, and it silently does its job with tiny power consumption and no attention. (Check the LED is glowing at change of watch.)

Radar or RTE? On a yacht, if it's one or the other, then definitely RTE; but if you have room, power and trained crew for a radar in addition, then the latest, smallest FM version would be nice to have.

Ah good to know (I know very little about different types of radar), I assumed ships would have used a "newer" generation on radar.

May still be on the wish list then!

In response to AIS, I did hear a ship talking to the local VTS who both said they has seen me on AIS on approach which was nice to know considering how little room there was out of the channel for me to tack in (still stayed out of the way though).

 

[jamie N]

Yes we did that in the Baltic, you can make 100,000 tons of steel alter course by touching a button

Yup, with my wooden boat, I really enjoy the silly idea that anything that's got me on radar when my RTE is energised, will expect to see the "100,000 tons of steel" on the horizon, and be vaguely disappointed at 7m of mahogany!

 

[LadyInBed]

I have mixed feeling. There are two things to consider, See and Be Seen, so it comes down to which is more important to you.
RTE allows you to be seen by ships and other boats that carry Radar AND have it switched on AND it is old school not SW. Yes it gives you an indication that something is out there but nothing much more, so you also need an unimpeded mk1 eyeball or other electronics to See.
AIS transceiver and an unimpeded mk1 eyeball allows you to See and Be Seen, even by small boats who carry AIS Rx and there are a lot of them about these days.
Modern RADAR allows you to See but does nothing to help you Be Seen.
Personally (when I only has AIS Rx) I have never noted a ship that was on a collision course that did NOT alter course to avoid me! so to my mind an AIS transceiver is the most cost effective device followed by Radar if you can afford it.

 

[prv]

Radar or RTE? On a yacht, if it's one or the other, then definitely RTE;

In a straight choice between being able to detect everything around me in poor vis, accurately measure distances to anything, and cross-check the GPS and plotter in any conditions, versus making myself somewhat more visible to other vessels I can’t see, I would certainly choose the former.

Pete

 

[prv]

I assumed ships would have used a "newer" generation on radar.

Very much the opposite

Where J Random Yottie can go out and buy Raymarine or Navico’s latest and greatest and bolt it onto his yacht any time he wants, the master of a commercial ship is stuck with whatever the owners agreed with the shipyard to install at build or possibly a refit. That choice will have been constrained by cost, and by all the various class and type approval bureaucracy, which also slows down the rate at which manufacturers can, or want to, bring new products to market.

Pete