radar reflectors and metal masts

Ignorance is no bar to having an opinion.

The "Radar Reflectors" tested by QinetiQ were tested in an anechoic chamber, in isolation, so that their responses could be accurately assessed. These are effectively enhancements to the radar signature of the vessel to which they are attached.

All reflectors other than the Visible, the Cyclops and the Tri-lens are variations of a corner reflector, even the carpet plastic tubes.

The tube reflectors have bi-fold corners and will only return any echo when the incident waves are at 90 degrees to the corner, which is why they are so ineffective.

Other corner reflectors have either "stacked arrays" inside a cover (like the Blipper) where the corners are facing different directions, or planar like the folding ones that have to be arranged in the "catch water" position in order to give a good return. These are corners in three dimensions and the principle of these is to reflect as much of any incident wave back in the direction from which it came. The maximum return is when the incident wave is co-planar to the axis of symmetry of the corner. If you study the polar plots of the strength of the echo, they form a teardrop along this axis, fading as the direction varies.

Lens reflectors are designed to focus incident radar waves and reflect them back in the direction from which they came, which is why the give such consistent echoes. These are maximised across polar arcs of around 120 degrees, which is why the Tri-lens has three.

When a radar pulse strikes a target, how much of the incident radiation is reflected back to the transmitting antenna depends on the nature of the target. Ships are largely made of steel which give good consistent echoes and local effects can generally be ignored. No operator is going to miss a Hapag -Lloyd container ship because it's return varies between 1000 and 1200 square meters due to the various lumps of oddly shaped metal strewn around it's decks. Leisure craft are made largely from Fibre reinforced plastic, which is relatively transparent to radar frequencies and tend to absorb radiation rather than reflect it. Furthermore, any radar return from, say, a Westerly Centaur will vary due to it's relative instability, and the scattering effect of the metal items such as masts, anchors, booms and rigging. In calm conditions the variation will be slight, so there will be some consistency regarding the return, but in confused conditions there will be little consistency from the return and it will likely be lost in general clutter at the receiver, particularly if the sensitivity control of the display has been used to eliminate spurious echoes.

All reflectors have different performances depending on the frequency band used by the radar being tested. One that presents a good radar cross section to an X-Band radar will present a different one at S-Band.
 
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As a yachtsman in the fortunate position of also having a radar I have the opportunity to see how other yachts look on the radar. A few years back I recall a club cruise in company where we started talking to each other about how well we could see each other and what reflectors were being used. There was not that much of a pattern to draw conclusions, indeed 2 yachts with the same reflector looked very different maybe because of other reflectors onboard or the angle of the view. My conclusion was to have the best passive reflector I could find.
However, an experience in the Irish sea made me fit AIS (and yes I know the suggestions that some ships switch this to ignore small vessels). On this occasion, at night, I identified two ships converging and foresaw that one would turn to starboard which would then converge on me. Calling this ship I asked if he was aware of my presence. He was not and asked if my AIS was not working - I did not have one. He then adjusted his radar and then said he could now see me.
So you may have a good reflector but if the ships radar is not set with sufficient gain etc. then you still may not be seen.
 
A good argument for layered safety measures. I do not have AIS as I have to manage my batteries very carefully when passage making. If I had room for a couple of 110aH leisure batteries, I might well do something different.
 
As a yachtsman in the fortunate position of also having a radar I have the opportunity to see how other yachts look on the radar. A few years back I recall a club cruise in company where we started talking to each other about how well we could see each other and what reflectors were being used. There was not that much of a pattern to draw conclusions, indeed 2 yachts with the same reflector looked very different maybe because of other reflectors onboard or the angle of the view. My conclusion was to have the best passive reflector I could find.
However, an experience in the Irish sea made me fit AIS (and yes I know the suggestions that some ships switch this to ignore small vessels). On this occasion, at night, I identified two ships converging and foresaw that one would turn to starboard which would then converge on me. Calling this ship I asked if he was aware of my presence. He was not and asked if my AIS was not working - I did not have one. He then adjusted his radar and then said he could now see me.
So you may have a good reflector but if the ships radar is not set with sufficient gain etc. then you still may not be seen.

well done on the real world test

from memory did any of the yachts not have a reflector up?

If there were, can you recall what sort of signal you got from them

I am v happpy to raise a radar reflector for the night times - I might even raise two - one on each side of the mast.

Barry, a retired michigan state trooper is beinging his I pad and that gives him a read oout of AIS.

Safety is always a factor - althgough easily my biggest fear is falling overboard while getting from the dinghy to the boat and vice versa

My sailing is always conducted with careful eye kept on the budget.

I do not travel with a life raft - round scotland we did take the inflatable - so that might be deployable

but my main hope is rapid rescue in the event of getting into serious trouble

However, most of my sailing is along the coast in good weather

We are due to leave the Fal on saturday. At the moment the weather gods are predicting an easterly - which would be amazing

then the wind swings nnw - not ideal but we could take a long reach into the Severn - I would like to sail past Lundy if we can

I found the spinnaker

3 old blokes, one old Centaur, 633 miles

D
 
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A good argument for layered safety measures. I do not have AIS as I have to manage my batteries very carefully when passage making. If I had room for a couple of 110aH leisure batteries, I might well do something different.


You must have very small or knackered batteries then if you are having to be so careful. Our AIS Transponder combined with gps only uses 0.24 amps.

I suspect your basic navigation lamps if they are not LED's will be consuming between 2 to 4 amps minimum!

Power consumption is No argument against having an AIS Transponder in IMHO. Our old radar set is a different issue by a considerable factor.

I don't have any form of reflector.....
 
I've done the run up north from Falmouth although we stopped at Milford Haven. There's quite a risk of fog at this time of year. I wouldn't contemplate such an exposed passage without a liferaft althoug the chances are you'll be OK. There's a lot of big shipping about and we encountered a couple of fishing fleets whose lights were confusing until we entered a thick fog bank in which we stayed until the end of our trip.
well done on the real world test

from memory did any of the yachts not have a reflector up?

If there were, can you recall what sort of signal you got from them

I am v happpy to raise a radar reflector for the night times - I might even raise two - one on each side of the mast.

Barry, a retired michigan state trooper is beinging his I pad and that gives him a read oout of AIS.

Safety is always a factor - althgough easily my biggest fear is falling overboard while getting from the dinghy to the boat and vice versa

My sailing is always conducted with careful eye kept on the budget.

I do not travel with a life raft - round scotland we did take the inflatable - so that might be deployable

but my main hope is rapid rescue in the event of getting into serious trouble

However, most of my sailing is along the coast in good weather

We are due to leave the Fal on saturday. At the moment the weather gods are predicting an easterly - which would be amazing

then the wind swings nnw - not ideal but we could take a long reach into the Severn - I would like to sail past Lundy if we can

I found the spinnaker

3 old blokes, one old Centaur, 633 miles

D
 
Barry, a retired michigan state trooper is beinging his I pad and that gives him a read oout of AIS.

Does he have some kind of additional radio receiver plugged into it, or is he just using an app like Marine Traffic? Not much phone signal in the middle of the Irish Sea!

Pete
 
Does he have some kind of additional radio receiver plugged into it, or is he just using an app like Marine Traffic? Not much phone signal in the middle of the Irish Sea!

Pete



as I understand it the phone signal reaches out 40 miles to his gizmo

so there will not be many times when we are further out than that

I aim to hug the coasts - just to keep things interesting and to take advantage of the tides

a good swoosh around a headlannd cann get things going nicely

D
 
So if a tight return beam is fairly useless in foul weather, what would be the result of back to backing two sky dishes in reverse attitude?
That shape could be a bit spherical, and with holes in it, windage would be reduced!Would the IF frequency of the dishes be far off Radar?
I think IF before the LNB is different, and the installer of my wi-Fi system to a nearby mountain, said that his antenna must be mounted away from Sky?
 
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well done on the real world test

from memory did any of the yachts not have a reflector up?

If there were, can you recall what sort of signal you got from them

D

There was a mixture: some without reflectors and some with of various types. As I said, the results were not consistent but then not exactly a scientific test.
 
A friend recently followed all the research and theory before buying the 'best' radar reflector.

He tested it by asking the OOW of a cruise ship 1M away, smooth sea and good viz, if he was visible on radar? OOW came back and said No. OOW said to stand by whilst he made adjustments, then, again No.

At the recent RYA conference we were told to rely on none of them.
This tallies with the bit of the Ouzo report that that people don't read.
Due to reflections off the sea, there are huge holes in the radar coverage when the radar is high up, like on a big x-channel ferry, and the target is low down.
A lot of these holes can be in the 1 to 4nm range, which is typically decision time.

The problem is, it's statistical and the answer varies a lot depending on the heights you put into the model, as well as the exact sea state and radar parameters.
Ship radar is mostly about avoiding other ships, not small yachts.

I feel it's a bit like riding a motorbike, don't place too much reliance on being seen.

OTOH, being seen by the radars on smaller vessels like smaller coasters, FV's, the pilot boats etc, can be very valuable, as they are less predictable than bigger ships.
 
So as I can only afford the Plastimo alli. one how do I achieve the (apparently) preferable 'rain catcher' angle of dangle.?

Tie several strings to it, one to each corner or middle of edge. Tie them off to a ring for uphaul and a ring for downhaul.
 
Not merely preferable - it's the difference between works as well as can be expected and doesn't work at all!

Not actually true.
It's more a case of giving the most even coverage around the horizon.
Corner-up has a higher peak response but at the expense of a lower minimum.

Definitely better to have it up at any old angle than not at all, but it's not too hard to get it right.
 
I remember beating upwind across Lyme Bay about 5 miles SW of Portland Bill, headed for Dartmouth, in my then bilge keeled trident 24 and against a brisk F5 and nasty sea when my friend crewing for me said what was that splash? 'Don't know ' I said. a little later a girt great tanker appeared from stern and I said to crew, 'good job we have the radar reflector up', to which he said ' what reflector? that must have been the splash we heard 20 minutes ago!' :redface-new::redface-new: .
 
Re rain catching position
It would be a good idea if the suppliers of the aluminium reflectors were sold with a way of suspending them in the most efficient way. I found it quite tricky to rig mine properly.
 
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