Racing Heel

[Bosun Higgs]

Actually the same heeling moment </pedant>

Granny and eggs!

Un-reefed, less force, higher up, unless the top of the main is doing nothing? And if the top flogs at all it will be adding drag as well as heeling moment.
So maybe it depends whether the top will feather smoothly without flogging in a draggy way? Some sails seem better than others like this? Full length battens a good thing?

Another thought is that in some races, it's better to have a reefed rig, so you can confidently work tactically instead of e.g. not wanting to tack right now I'll just get through this gust.....?
While other windy races are less tactical?

The debate only really comes to a head on a fractional rig. Sure you can bend the mast a bit on a masthead rig but it isnt that much and doesnt give anything like the same depowering as on a fractional. So the comparison is reefing against a stalled main. I have never had a FB main but I a told that they arent that easy to depower. Certainly with a short battened main and a masthead rig I find it better to put a reef in than fight the main with too much rudder angle and leeway. The boat is still beautifully balanced with full genoa and reefed main at least until no 3 reef

When I did have a fractional fairly tippy boat prone to rounding up, I was surprised how effective the backstay tensioner could be and in a seaway it was definitely better to keep the main fully up as long as possible. The bottom of a decent swell would de-power a reefed main too much and the jib wasnt any help. On one occasion with a F8 broad reach and big rollers tramping up the bristol channel, I ended up having to motorsail because the reefed main lost all drive in the troughs.

 

[TallBuoy]

That's an interesting point on flattening the sail, thank you. Not reefing at 40 knots is astonishing to me, if there's ever an opportunity to see that in practice let me know. As a slow cruiser I'm unlikely to keep up a full sail much above 20knots but certainly, though i'm no clown, my trim skills aren't nearly as sharp as yours..

Another big difference here is the set up on a family cruiser compared to a racing boat is quite different, with the racer having more control options available, e.g. mainsheet traveller length and arrangement, mainsheet purchase arrangement, winch size and location, ease of adjustment on outhaul, and of course the sail itself, all of which make a difference to its trim, and hence ability to manage in stronger winds.

 

[Foolish Muse]

Figaro 2's do have reefs, and they use them.

Perhaps some do, but not the fellow I interviewed, and certainly not these guys:
In 35 knots: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_ZXmr8pmrs
In 55 knots: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_ExqQ80T5g
Ok, these guys have 1 reef in while sailing in 50 knots: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmLJAjLIHNA

 

[clutters]

Great videos, thank you for this. This thread has been very useful indeed, thanks for all the responses. I will certainly learn more about flattening the sail and experiment cautiously, being honest I haven't really bothered with using outhaul and backstay adjustment before and use of the traveller is patchy. I've picked up my sail trim books and re-engaged in the subject.

 

[flaming]

Perhaps some do, but not the fellow I interviewed, and certainly not these guys:
In 35 knots: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_ZXmr8pmrs
In 55 knots: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_ExqQ80T5g
Ok, these guys have 1 reef in while sailing in 50 knots: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmLJAjLIHNA

All of those had reefs rigged ready to take in, you can easily make out the reefing lines, and all were going downwind anyway!

Figaro sailors are offshore sailors. Offshore sailors have reefs. Sure, they don't need as many deep reefs as in days of yore, because of the ability to flatten modern sailcloth as discussed, but your figaro sailor is telling porkies if he's really claiming to regularly go upwind in 50 + knots will a full main offshore.

 

[bbg]

Perhaps some do, but not the fellow I interviewed, and certainly not these guys:
In 35 knots: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_ZXmr8pmrs
In 55 knots: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_ExqQ80T5g
Ok, these guys have 1 reef in while sailing in 50 knots: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmLJAjLIHNA

In the last video it is clear there is a second quite deep reef point just below the E on the main. I think they were carrying more sail area than was sensible for the purposes of the video. If they were truly trying to make progress upwind in 50 knots I think they would put the second reef in.

 

[Judders]

The other benefit of reefing is that you can use your main more of the time. Very often in heavy weather it's flogging the whole time because sheeting in would mean being overpowered. You need less of a lull to cope with the reefed main so you'll use it more and get more power overall.

Of course every design is different

 

[Foolish Muse]

The point I was trying to make is that flattening the main is just one way of dealing with higher winds. Reefing is another way. And yet another way is to twist off the top of the sail and allow wind to spill out. Works very well. And from the videos you can see that serious racers sometimes do it.

 

[flaming]

The point I was trying to make is that flattening the main is just one way of dealing with higher winds. Reefing is another way. And yet another way is to twist off the top of the sail and allow wind to spill out. Works very well. And from the videos you can see that serious racers sometimes do it.

I think you're confusing flatness (I.e minimal camber) which is induced by max outhaul, halyard, cunningham and backstay, and leach profile (twist or stood up straight) which is sheet tension and/or kicker. They are different things and are used in conjunction with each other (or not). Look at the main in the last video you posted, it's flat as a board, basically no shape at all. But it's twisted off at the top, that's a trimming setting, not a shape setting.
Most frequently twist has more to do with the sea state and the ability of the boat to punch through the waves at the higher course that a straight leach gives you, than the wind strength, though as you say in very strong winds you'd often have to go for a twisted off shape even in flat water.

 

[Foolish Muse]

You are right in that the different methods can be used in conjunction. You can have a flat sail foot and still twist off the top. Or you can reef a sail and twist off the top. I do these combinations often. There are obvious limits to how much you can flatten a sail, and when you're getting into the 35+ wind range, then you just can't flatten any further.

For our readers, keep in mind that none of what we're discussing here has anything to do with comfort, but is strictly about getting to the finish line first. Not necessarily what a cruiser would want.

As Flaming says, there is a big difference between how you would use these methods in different wind/wave conditions. Power (like 1st gear on a car) is used to accelerate quickly after climbing on top of each wave. In rough conditions with big waves, you want maximum power (think of using a 4-wheel drive when off-roading). Reefing a sail is a way to reduce power. So any time that you face 35 knot winds and a flat sea, then reefing would be best. ;-)

Perhaps the reason why the Figaro skippers are not reefing as much as we might think is because the seas off France where they are sailing, particularly the Bay of Biscay, are notoriously rough. They are happy to give up comfort for winning. So they eschew reefing for twisting. Just my thoughts.

One thing, particularly with a masthead rig, you want to make sure that both your mainsail and jib are twisted off equally. If your jib is sheeted in tight but your are twisting off the main, then you will lose helm control.

 

[bbg]

Perhaps the reason why the Figaro skippers are not reefing as much as we might think is because the seas off France where they are sailing, particularly the Bay of Biscay, are notoriously rough. They are happy to give up comfort for winning. So they eschew reefing for twisting. Just my thoughts.

In the videos that were posted, they are not reefing because they were out making a promotional video, and it looks rufty-tufty to have more sail up than you should!

 

[bryeomans]

In 30 odd years of racing and cruising our late IOR fractionally rigged Nicholson, we work off the helm position as the primary indication of when to reef. Upwind, one spoke of the wheel corresponds to about 3 degrees of weather helm - anything more pulls your arms off. It also increases drag which means more leeway which is very difficult to pick up if your boar speed stays more or less the same. Experience suggests that the combined effect of griping to windward in the heavier gusts and the increased weather helm really hits your VMG and results in a slower passage. Time after time we sailed through Sigma 33s under full sail with the helmsman's arms around his ears fighting the helm, while we grooved through under a reefed main on a much higher course made good, but pointing on a lower heading. A good Sigma crew with superlative trimming skills might be able to carry the full main, but sustaining it overnight is tough. My point is that it is the VMG/CMG equation which counts ( whether racing or cruising) and, for most of us, we are better off reefing early and sailing "lower" and faster especially if there is a bit of sea running.