Racing downwind; no spinnaker, no pole

[sailoppopotamus]

My boat is a Jeanneau Sun Light 30, with a 130% roller genoa. I race under ORC Club non-spinnaker rules. My question is about how to best race downwind.

The ORC certificate states my "gybe angle" as 144 degrees in 6 kts of air and 170 degrees in 8 kts of air (slowly rising with wind speed after that). My usual strategy is to sail as deep as possible without the genoa collapsing -- usually this means sailing at higher angles (150-160 or so) than the 170 degrees off the wind, that the certificate claims to be optimal. My question is whether this is the correct approach. On one hand, the genoa collapsing certainly isn't doing me much good -- on the other hand, I imagine that this is modeled by the VPP so I'm a bit reluctant to outright dismiss the numbers in the certificate and sail higher. I'm also wondering whether I'm completely misinterpreting the gybe angle figure -- could it be assuming that I should be sailing wing-on-wing, at 190 degrees to the wind (i.e. 10 by the lee)?

I've also been wondering whether it would be beneficial to roll up some of the genoa, even in light winds, so that the part of it that is most heavily blanketed by the main sail doesn't weigh down the sail. Is there any merit to this thought?

For the record, the boat does have a spinnaker pole that I could otherwise use to pole out the genoa, but it is not listed in the certificate so it doesn't look like I'm allowed to use it. I will have a symmetric spinnaker for next year's season, as I'm quite aware that this is how displacement boats are meant to go downwind

 

[RJJ]

Put your sprayhood up.

In light to moderate winds, get a 7 foot tall chum to hold out the jib sheets, hanging off the shrouds. Reduce sail if necessary so he can manage.

Reduce sail and goose wing anyway. Do whatever it takes to goose wing. The genoa is doing nothing dangling to leeward. Even if you get it to grudgingly fill at 150 degrees, it's doing very little.

Only exception is in very light airs, do sail higher, when even heavy boats benefit from generating apparent wind. This is below 6-7 knots true when you are lucky to get 2 knots of boatspeed.

When goose winged, don't be dead downwind until you are sailing at full hull speed in a F5. Either 10 deg by the Lee or 10 to 15 deg the other way. Look how Lasers sail in moderate winds, always trying to get flow across the rig...and doesn't really matter which way.

 

[Ceirwan]

You really just need to experiment and see what works for you, get out there and do some timed runs in consistent conditions, experiment with trim and the angle and see how she performs.

I realise the above is a non answer, but unless someone here has the same boat and sail plan then all we can do is give general advice, you'll learn a lot more playing around and seeing what works yourself.

 

[RJJ]

You really just need to experiment and see what works for you, get out there and do some timed runs in consistent conditions, experiment with trim and the angle and see how she performs.

I realise the above is a non answer, but unless someone here has the same boat and sail plan then all we can do is give general advice, you'll learn a lot more playing around and seeing what works yourself.

All heavy-ish boats, I.e.. those too heavy either to plane or to generate significant apparent wind, work the same, and that gives rise to the advice above.

The different modes in which heavy boats sail are the same. The crossover points between the different modes vary but only a little.

I've spend a heap of time team racing in dinghies and keelboats and am pretty confident in the advice.

 

[sailoppopotamus]

Thank you for the advice RJJ and Ceirwan. I'll definitely keep it mind and make it a point to goose-wing at all costs, even if it means rolling up part of the sail. A fundamental problem with experimenting is that I don't have any instruments apart from a depth sounder and Navionics on my phone, so it's difficult to ascertain whether small changes to the boat's speed are due to sail trim or external factors such as a tiny gust or a convenient wave.

 

[flaming]

In light to moderate winds, get a 7 foot tall chum to hold out the jib sheets, hanging off the shrouds. Reduce sail if necessary so he can manage.

Be aware that if your gangly chum positions himself so that his torso is outside of the lifelines then he is likely to be breaking rule 49.2. The relevant part of which is

49.2 When lifelines are required by the class rules or any other rule, competitors shall not position any part of their torsos outside them, except briefly to perform a necessary task.

Note that the regulations of ORC cat 4 (which most yacht racing requires) would be a rule that requires lifelines.

Pushing out a jib sheet is not "briefly to perform a necessary task"... Learned that one the hard way many moons ago by loosing a protest....

Absolutely agree that goosewinging is the way to go downwind in medium to strong winds in a traditional displacement boat.

The best way to achieve this without a pole is with very active helming. This requires some practice, but can be very fast once you get the hang of it. Well... quite fast... A pole will be quicker, and a kite quicker still in anything less than about 20kts of breeze.

 

[sailoppopotamus]

You're very correct to point out rule 49.2.

I'll have my spinnaker listed in the inventory for next year's certificate. I had one made in June but I needed to sort out a few things with the boat before I would be in a position to hoist it (as well as come to terms with my fear of this sail). Racing as a non-spinnaker boat was not that exciting after all. It was either a case of racing against only two other boats, which is rather underwhelming, or being part of the general class and "cheating" by not having to pay the rating price for a spinnaker.

 

[Daydream believer]

Have you got a spare genoa?
Drop the main & run under 2 genoas.

 

[RJJ]

For the record, the boat does have a spinnaker pole that I could otherwise use to pole out the genoa, but it is not listed in the certificate so it doesn't look like I'm allowed to use it.

I suspect, though you should check, that you are allowed to pole out the genoa within the existing rating, which simplifies matters a lot!

 

[Laser310]

The ORC VPP is not calculating speeds for sailing by the lee with a poled out jib- although this may indeed be the fastest way to go downwind with just a main and jib.

Across a range of boats.., I have seed ORC polar tables that have downwind target angles that are too deep - even with spinnakers.

 

[sailoppopotamus]

Have you got a spare genoa?
Drop the main & run under 2 genoas.

So while I originally thought this isn't allowed, I checked the rules and it seems to be allowed. I don't have a second genoa but it's an interesting thought.

I suspect, though you should check, that you are allowed to pole out the genoa within the existing rating, which simplifies matters a lot!

Some might be allowed, but my certificate explicitly says "0 spinnaker poles" so I'm pretty sure it's not allowed. Besides, there's a clause in the rules that prohibits the use of equipment for outboard sheeting of headsails, so lashing a boat hook to the mast is also not allowed.

 

[RJJ]

So while I originally thought this isn't allowed, I checked the rules and it seems to be allowed. I don't have a second genoa but it's an interesting thought.



Some might be allowed, but my certificate explicitly says "0 spinnaker poles" so I'm pretty sure it's not allowed. Besides, there's a clause in the rules that prohibits the use of equipment for outboard sheeting of headsails, so lashing a boat hook to the mast is also not allowed.

Define spinnaker pole....

 

[Daydream believer]

Define spinnaker pole....

A thing that suddenly belts the foredeck crew on the head when he shouts to the cockpit crew " For ch..ts sake!!, ease the pole forward two inches will you"
Followed by, " You £$%^&*()_+ twats. You've smashed me "£$%^ing brains in"
Followed by, " You never had any. So stop bloody moaning, You big girl's blouse. It slipped a bit that's all" ?

 

[RJJ]

A thing that suddenly belts the foredeck crew on the head when he shouts to the cockpit crew " For ch..ts sake!!, ease the pole forward two inches will you"
Followed by, " You £$%^&*()_+ twats. You've smashed me "£$%^ing brains in"
Followed by, " You never had any. So stop bloody moaning, You big girl's blouse. It slipped a bit that's all" ?

My point being, it's only a spinnaker pole if attached to a spinnaker. If attached to a jib, it's a jib pole.

On the ARC informal handicapping, for example, a symmetric or asymmetric gets handicapped. A jib pole (or two) is taken for granted.

 

[sailoppopotamus]

From RRS 55.3

No sail shall be sheeted over or through any device that exerts outward pressure on a sheet or clew of a sail at a point from which, with the boat upright, a vertical line would fall outside the hull or deck, except:

1. a headsail clew may be connected (as defined in The Equipment Rules of Sailing) to a whisker pole, provided that a spinnaker is not set;
2. any sail may be sheeted to or led above a boom that is regularly used for a sail and is permanently attached to the mast from which the head of the sail is set;
3. a headsail may be sheeted to its own boom that requires no adjustment when tacking; and
4. the boom of a sail may be sheeted to a bumkin.

In Equipment Rules of Sailing the whisker pole is defined as

SPINNAKER POLE
A spar attached to the mast spar and connected to a spinnaker guy

WHISKER POLE
A spar attached to the mast spar and connected to a headsail clew.

Both definitions are very bad in my opinion. A spinnaker pole only becomes one when it is attached to a spinnaker guy. If it's just sitting on the deck it would seem to not qualify as a spinnaker pole. Yet ORC Club certificates list the number of spinnaker poles on board.

It seems that perhaps there is an argument here that despite my certificate stating "Spinnaker poles: 0", I could nevertheless use mine to pole out the genoa so long as I connect it directly to the headsail clew. That being said, I'm not too keen on sailing like that, I'd much rather have the sheet go through the pole.

 

[Birdseye]

My point being, it's only a spinnaker pole if attached to a spinnaker. If attached to a jib, it's a jib pole.

On the ARC informal handicapping, for example, a symmetric or asymmetric gets handicapped. A jib pole (or two) is taken for granted.

When does an asymmetric become a jib/ genoa and vice versa according to the rules?

 

[Daydream believer]

When the clew is attached within the fore triangle As opposed to in front & flying.
I seem to recall bloopers ( Might be out of my depth here- Certainly was when flying the darned thing 50 years ago) got round the rules this way years ago. Thus allowing an asymetric to be flown at the same time as a spinnaker because it was set inside the fore triangle

 

[RJJ]

From RRS 55.3



In Equipment Rules of Sailing the whisker pole is defined as



Both definitions are very bad in my opinion. A spinnaker pole only becomes one when it is attached to a spinnaker guy. If it's just sitting on the deck it would seem to not qualify as a spinnaker pole. Yet ORC Club certificates list the number of spinnaker poles on board.

It seems that perhaps there is an argument here that despite my certificate stating "Spinnaker poles: 0", I could nevertheless use mine to pole out the genoa so long as I connect it directly to the headsail clew. That being said, I'm not too keen on sailing like that, I'd much rather have the sheet go through the pole.

In my opinion the definition allows for that. And also for you to rig an independent guy if you wish, which would not be spinnaker guy but a whisker-pole-guy.

 

[Birdseye]

When the clew is attached within the fore triangle As opposed to in front & flying.
I seem to recall bloopers ( Might be out of my depth here- Certainly was when flying the darned thing 50 years ago) got round the rules this way years ago. Thus allowing an asymetric to be flown at the same time as a spinnaker because it was set inside the fore triangle

do you mean the clew or the tack?

 

[merjan]

You can still rig outboard sheets for a better sheeting angle.
*I think* the rules ban the the equipment for doing this, eg poles, not the sheets themselves. Someone else can correct me if I am wrong.