fireball
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
or do you know something I don't . . .?
[/ QUOTE ]
Probably ...
or do you know something I don't . . .?
[/ QUOTE ]
Probably ...
Racing and Col Regs
- Thread starter spidercomm
- Start date
davidpbo
Well-Known Member
Much along the lines of my problem posted a week or two ago here:
Col Regs Advice
I had another interesting situation some time ago, I was helming a friends 50ft ex naval workboat (motor) up the mersey. A racing fleet of 6 or so cruisers was coming at us off our starboard bow. We throttled back to let them pass in front and then gave it full chatter once the last one had passed, they in the meantime got to the sea wall and tacked and were most indignant we were in their way. Did I forget to mention we were navigating a buoyed channel.
I considered us to be navigating a buoyed channel, constrained by our draft and limited in our ability to manouever (it will not turn quickly on a sixpence as they seemed to expect), don't know how that would have stood up but,,, we had done everything we could to avoid them.
As a sailor I would have looked at a large wooden boat such as I was on and assumed that as it was in a buoyed channel it might be a bit restricted in its ability to manouever and given more room which if my memory serves me correctly they could have easily done by bearing away slightly.
The racing organisations need to do more to remind some of the more gung ho racing boys and girls of their responsibilties when racing via their clubs before someone gets seriously hurt or worse. Racers do not have the right to DEMAND that other water users keep out of their way, neither should they attempt to bully them into giving way.
The sort of behavour described is not doing the argument against compulsory registration of boats any favours, and once registered be sure they will be taxed.
David
Col Regs Advice
I had another interesting situation some time ago, I was helming a friends 50ft ex naval workboat (motor) up the mersey. A racing fleet of 6 or so cruisers was coming at us off our starboard bow. We throttled back to let them pass in front and then gave it full chatter once the last one had passed, they in the meantime got to the sea wall and tacked and were most indignant we were in their way. Did I forget to mention we were navigating a buoyed channel.
I considered us to be navigating a buoyed channel, constrained by our draft and limited in our ability to manouever (it will not turn quickly on a sixpence as they seemed to expect), don't know how that would have stood up but,,, we had done everything we could to avoid them.
As a sailor I would have looked at a large wooden boat such as I was on and assumed that as it was in a buoyed channel it might be a bit restricted in its ability to manouever and given more room which if my memory serves me correctly they could have easily done by bearing away slightly.
The racing organisations need to do more to remind some of the more gung ho racing boys and girls of their responsibilties when racing via their clubs before someone gets seriously hurt or worse. Racers do not have the right to DEMAND that other water users keep out of their way, neither should they attempt to bully them into giving way.
The sort of behavour described is not doing the argument against compulsory registration of boats any favours, and once registered be sure they will be taxed.
David
Danny
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
limited in our ability to manouever
[/ QUOTE ] I think this is restricted to working vessels and would necessitate you showing the appropriate day shapes. Certainly "constrained by draft" applies though.
limited in our ability to manouever
[/ QUOTE ] I think this is restricted to working vessels and would necessitate you showing the appropriate day shapes. Certainly "constrained by draft" applies though.
capt_courageous
Well-Known Member
Hi
Last week we were leaving Pompey by the small boat channel, very close to Dolphin. Just as we were about to turn into the Inner Swashway boat Scumsail 03 inbound cut the corner and almost pushed us onto Blockhouse. He then pushed between 4 other outbound boats and Dolphin. That crowd don't know what regulations are. The last thing I want to do is get into incident reports to QHM but next time that lot give me grief I shall report them. ChugginAround has summed them up.
Last week we were leaving Pompey by the small boat channel, very close to Dolphin. Just as we were about to turn into the Inner Swashway boat Scumsail 03 inbound cut the corner and almost pushed us onto Blockhouse. He then pushed between 4 other outbound boats and Dolphin. That crowd don't know what regulations are. The last thing I want to do is get into incident reports to QHM but next time that lot give me grief I shall report them. ChugginAround has summed them up.
savageseadog
Well-Known Member
Perhaps if you'd known anything about sailing you'd have realised they would be tacking at the wall and positioned yourself accordingly. There is acres of space in most parts of the Mersey.
ChrisE
Well-Known Member
Wouldn't it be nice if it was that easy!
I've raced in corporate events, as skipper as it happens, and SS are very clear in their briefings as to relationship between race and colregs.
From the evidence presented here the SS boats were crewed by f***wits but don't lay the blame at SS door. Report the silly sods and get them disqualified.
I've raced in corporate events, as skipper as it happens, and SS are very clear in their briefings as to relationship between race and colregs.
From the evidence presented here the SS boats were crewed by f***wits but don't lay the blame at SS door. Report the silly sods and get them disqualified.
gandy
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Stuff like this suggests that the sportsmanship has gone from yacht racing.
[/ QUOTE ] I should have said "present company excepted" of course, and I've not seen poor sportsmanship from the local dinghy racers either.
Stories like this make me wonder if its different down South, or with bigger boats maybe.
Stuff like this suggests that the sportsmanship has gone from yacht racing.
[/ QUOTE ] I should have said "present company excepted" of course, and I've not seen poor sportsmanship from the local dinghy racers either.
Stories like this make me wonder if its different down South, or with bigger boats maybe.
iangrant
Well-Known Member
col regs say sunsail yachts have right of way
cheers
ian
cheers
ian
alisdairs
Member
[ QUOTE ]
Wouldn't it be nice if it was that easy!
I've raced in corporate events, as skipper as it happens, and SS are very clear in their briefings as to relationship between race and colregs.
From the evidence presented here the SS boats were crewed by f***wits but don't lay the blame at SS door. Report the silly sods and get them disqualified.
[/ QUOTE ]
Exactly - if a guy in a hire car cuts you up on a roundabout, you don't blame Avis do you ?
Wouldn't it be nice if it was that easy!
I've raced in corporate events, as skipper as it happens, and SS are very clear in their briefings as to relationship between race and colregs.
From the evidence presented here the SS boats were crewed by f***wits but don't lay the blame at SS door. Report the silly sods and get them disqualified.
[/ QUOTE ]
Exactly - if a guy in a hire car cuts you up on a roundabout, you don't blame Avis do you ?
bbg
Well-Known Member
I don't think it is fair to tar all racers with the same brush. It it was a Sunsail boat it was likely to be a corporate event - that crew might only race once a year, if that.
Most people I have raced with would appreciate it if a cruiser didn't get in our way, and would acknowledge (with a friendly wave) anyone who changed course to stay out of our way - but would also follow the colregs wrt non-racers without complaint.
One thing to appreciate is that racers will be comfortable with a much closer "miss" than a lot of cruisers would appreciate.
Most people I have raced with would appreciate it if a cruiser didn't get in our way, and would acknowledge (with a friendly wave) anyone who changed course to stay out of our way - but would also follow the colregs wrt non-racers without complaint.
One thing to appreciate is that racers will be comfortable with a much closer "miss" than a lot of cruisers would appreciate.
l'escargot
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
...Most people I have raced with would appreciate it if a cruiser didn't get in our way, and would acknowledge (with a friendly wave) anyone who changed course to stay out of our way....
[/ QUOTE ]
And I think most cruisers also would keep out of the way, but in this case the Swashway is quite a busy exit point from Portsmouth Harbour for boats heading East and joins the small boat channel immediately at the entrance to the harbour. I would say the decision to place a race mark there is questionable.
...Most people I have raced with would appreciate it if a cruiser didn't get in our way, and would acknowledge (with a friendly wave) anyone who changed course to stay out of our way....
[/ QUOTE ]
And I think most cruisers also would keep out of the way, but in this case the Swashway is quite a busy exit point from Portsmouth Harbour for boats heading East and joins the small boat channel immediately at the entrance to the harbour. I would say the decision to place a race mark there is questionable.
davidpbo
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
I think this is restricted to working vessels and would necessitate you showing the appropriate day shapes. Certainly "constrained by draft" applies though.
[/ QUOTE ]
I am sure you are right, but if a vessel is constrained by its draught the vessel is by that fact (not law) limited in its ability to manouevre and should be treated as such.
I think this is restricted to working vessels and would necessitate you showing the appropriate day shapes. Certainly "constrained by draft" applies though.
[/ QUOTE ]
I am sure you are right, but if a vessel is constrained by its draught the vessel is by that fact (not law) limited in its ability to manouevre and should be treated as such.
ColinHuggins
N/A
Just noticed "Had no racing burgee flying". Is there such a thing? Not mandatory anyway. What IS demanded is not to fly an ensign. And that is something Sunsail are not good at observing.
Orlrite, not much use if the darn thing is coming straight at you. So here's another tip: they never walk alone; where one is, there'll surely be others close by.
Hardly a crumb of comfort tho' . . .
Orlrite, not much use if the darn thing is coming straight at you. So here's another tip: they never walk alone; where one is, there'll surely be others close by.
Hardly a crumb of comfort tho' . . .
fireball
Well-Known Member
Can ppl please remember - although the boats are owned and run by Sunsail, they do not usually control the crew. It is probably just another case of Easy Identity ...
l'escargot
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Can ppl please remember - although the boats are owned and run by Sunsail, they do not usually control the crew. It is probably just another case of Easy Identity ...
[/ QUOTE ]
But the skippers are usually employed by Sunsail and they are responsible.
Can ppl please remember - although the boats are owned and run by Sunsail, they do not usually control the crew. It is probably just another case of Easy Identity ...
[/ QUOTE ]
But the skippers are usually employed by Sunsail and they are responsible.
fireball
Well-Known Member
So the corporate racing fleet (usually) have a SS skipper onboard? Hmm I'll shout louder next time - probably hear me in Brighton and Poole! /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
l'escargot
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
So the corporate racing fleet (usually) have a SS skipper onboard? ....
[/ QUOTE ]
Someone has to stay sober /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
So the corporate racing fleet (usually) have a SS skipper onboard? ....
[/ QUOTE ]
Someone has to stay sober /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
William_H
Well-Known Member
We have similar problems (perhaps worse) on Swan River.
Local boating rules (as given by government) specify that boats (including sail boats) should give way to racing boats. However racing means ina formal registered race. Which naturally requires flying of a racing flag.
however it is only a "should" not very legally binding.
In all cases Col Regs prevail.
regarding "sportsmanship" I would have thought that on the water among sailors the rules cover colision type possibilities. sportmanship would not apply. Sportsmanship would apply to areas where rules don't apply.
Around here if you have a beef against another sailor who is racing you must advise the club concerned as soon as possible. Ideally within 1 hour of the race conclusion. You must provide, within a reasonable time a written report and if the offender chooses to contest the protest you must make yourself available for a scheduled protest hearing. Hopefully with you bringing at least one witness from your boat. As you can imagine you would have to be pretty Peed off to go through with it.
Sailing is a complex business in crowded water ways. new comers do make mistakes or are just ignorant. A bluster of abuse is of course upsetting but not uncommon.(the male ego) I certainly make enough mistakes or miss seeing other boats enough to require I have a little understanding for those who make mistakes.
Finally if you are going to have a colision make sure it is your bow into his midships not the other way round.
So to Sailcloth you are right to be peed off but just take it easy you will see a whole lot more stupidity before you are done. olewill
Local boating rules (as given by government) specify that boats (including sail boats) should give way to racing boats. However racing means ina formal registered race. Which naturally requires flying of a racing flag.
however it is only a "should" not very legally binding.
In all cases Col Regs prevail.
regarding "sportsmanship" I would have thought that on the water among sailors the rules cover colision type possibilities. sportmanship would not apply. Sportsmanship would apply to areas where rules don't apply.
Around here if you have a beef against another sailor who is racing you must advise the club concerned as soon as possible. Ideally within 1 hour of the race conclusion. You must provide, within a reasonable time a written report and if the offender chooses to contest the protest you must make yourself available for a scheduled protest hearing. Hopefully with you bringing at least one witness from your boat. As you can imagine you would have to be pretty Peed off to go through with it.
Sailing is a complex business in crowded water ways. new comers do make mistakes or are just ignorant. A bluster of abuse is of course upsetting but not uncommon.(the male ego) I certainly make enough mistakes or miss seeing other boats enough to require I have a little understanding for those who make mistakes.
Finally if you are going to have a colision make sure it is your bow into his midships not the other way round.
So to Sailcloth you are right to be peed off but just take it easy you will see a whole lot more stupidity before you are done. olewill
Rick
Well-Known Member
Local Barrister here in Queensland, Oz did some research recently and determined that here, RRS have no application, as there is no statute on the state laws that allows the COLREGS to be varied - therefore it is COLREGS only. Our club races now all carry a waiver in the NOR where we point this out. It's probablt the same is true in the UK as our law is essentially the same.
For this incident, I'd suggest that complaint to SS is virtually mandatory - if we don't do something about flagrant disregard for the rules, then we're individually part of the problem.
There is a section of the RRS (rule 22 - intefereing with another boat) that some racers think applies to anyone in their way, however it actually applies only to vessels involved in racing, but for whom a race isn't currently underway, eg for multiple races using a common start line.
For this incident, I'd suggest that complaint to SS is virtually mandatory - if we don't do something about flagrant disregard for the rules, then we're individually part of the problem.
There is a section of the RRS (rule 22 - intefereing with another boat) that some racers think applies to anyone in their way, however it actually applies only to vessels involved in racing, but for whom a race isn't currently underway, eg for multiple races using a common start line.
ChrisE
Well-Known Member
Pros in charge?
Unless you have the figures to prove it, I'm not sure that you are right there. In the last event I sailed, out of a fleet of 20 or so boats there were two pros, the rest were punters like me.
Unless you have the figures to prove it, I'm not sure that you are right there. In the last event I sailed, out of a fleet of 20 or so boats there were two pros, the rest were punters like me.