R.Y.A Training - what do you thinlk of it?

capnsensible said:
Have you looked at any RYA training syllabus in the last 10 years? You will be happy to know that your points are very valid and have long been included in the training schemes. Well done.
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See above ...
Someone got their DS practical LAST YEAR and the electronic plotter was ?deliberately switched off? for the duration of the course.
Evidently, RYA DS instructors are not following the training syllabus.
At best, this seems to be an area of confusion and inconsistency for the RYA and their instructors.
 
This discussion is very relevant to me. After 30 years of (sporadic) sailing I had starting thinking about getting qualified. I am not sure I can bring myself to sit through day skipper to get to coastal skipper etc but it is certainly the way the RYA and course providers appear to be pushing me.
I can see the arguments for proving I am at day skipper level before wasting my time (and theirs and other candidates) on a coastal skipper course but it is still putting me off bothering.

On the other subject of chartplotters etc, I am not so sure the RYA should be in a hurry to switch focus to them even if they are very common nowadays.
Most of my sailing has been done with good old paper charts but a couple of weeks ago I was on a charter boat with a fairly new garmin system. Yes it was very convenient and yes it was reliable and yes we all had phones with GPS etc to back it up. But accurate? Well, I distinctly remember it telling me I was 30 yards south of black rock in Falmouth when I could see damn well that we had already passed to the west of it going up river ;( Not a big error (and I don't know if it was a chart error or momentary loss of gps lock) but it certainly made me realise that using it to feel my way up a creek at low water might end in tears.
This is perhaps the biggest problem with GPS and similar. Everyone expects it to just work and be accurate. Well it doesn't always work and it isn't always accurate.
There was also a few occasions where the digital chart was confusing (too many symbols hiding detail we wanted) so the paper chart was used as it was seen to be more reliable.
Lastly, and perhaps most relevant, in my experience anyone who needs to be taught how to use a chartplotter (having already understood paper charts) probably should not be out in a boat ;)
So is it not reasonable that courses should concentrate on the traditional methods (and theory that is relevant to both) and leave learning how to push buttons on the electronic devices as an exercise for the pupil?
 
I have never been an RYA instructor but have been involved at Regional Committee level for many years in the past so can comment with some knowledge.
As far as the theory part of the CS/DS and YM goes, they were decimated when the Government reorganised technical and further education, a consequence of which was the closure of most of such courses at local level. This particularly hit people wishing to participate at some distance from the coast. Individual instructors have tried to fill the gap, but at an unsubsidised and therefore expensive cost. The RYA needs to be more proactive in filling this gap. In my experience CS/DS and YM theory courses in the winter led to a good take up of practical courses in the summer.
A bigger failure, in my view, concerns dinghy sailing courses on two levels. First an outdoor education centre principal told me that he was reluctant to include sailing courses in his offerings because they were too expensive to run, particularly in regard to staff/pupil ratios. He much preferred canoeing, raft making, SUP boarding as they were more profitable. Inland sailing clubs do their very best to put on Level 1/2 courses, but the demands on members'time to get qualified and then do the instruction have two consequences. First the number of courses offered is seriously restricted, as above. Second members have only so much spare time, so if they are instructing, they are not racing or helping a club in some other way.
Although the commercial schools will strenuously oppose, I think the RYA should consider dropping "the "method", introduced by Bob Bond in the 1970's. Keep the instructor qualification regime, amended as required but begin to train by first instructing trainees to crew for instructors, possibly in Novices races. Only when the instructor is confident that they know where the wind is coming from and how to balance should the trainee move on to being taught how to helm. A really big advantage of this approach is that a Club should be able to respond very quickly to a potential trainee rather than give them details of some course three months on, by which time they may be doing something else.
When one considers how many people have done dinghy sailing courses over the years and how few have taken up the sport perhaps it is time to ask why the outcome has been so disappointing.
 
Ravi said:
See above ...
Someone got their DS practical LAST YEAR and the electronic plotter was ?deliberately switched off? for the duration of the course.
Evidently, RYA DS instructors are not following the training syllabus.
At best, this seems to be an area of confusion and inconsistency for the RYA and their instructors.
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It may be worth you reading that post again.

The syllabus for the Day Skipper practical course is quite clear and instructors are all made aware of the requirements. The Recognised Training Centre have the Principal and Chief Instructor to oversee the correct implementation of the courses. The centre itself is subject to annual inspection by RYA staff to confirm standards of training meet required standards.

There is also feedback forms from the school and a complaints procedure should a situation warrant it.

Like any other organisation, the rules and requirements are there so that customers are treated fairly and reasonably within their competence level.

If any one has specific questions that they don't wish to air on a public forum, feel free to send me a PM.

:encouragement:
 
Thank goodness they RYA training scheme exists anyway, maybe not perfect to everyone's eyes but just for a moment imagine what things would be like if no training tradition existed in this country and the government felt it necessary to come up with a licensing department for yachting.....
 
capnsensible said:
Have you looked at any RYA training syllabus in the last 10 years? You will be happy to know that your points are very valid and have long been included in the training schemes. Well done.
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Actually where *are* the official syllabi online? All I can find is stuff on sailing school sites and on one all I see directly related to electronic nav is:
* Use of electronic navigation equipment for position fixing
* Use of waypoints

Personally I think this is irrelevant to the original question: People don't start arguing about the RYA course content until they're "in" (in which case, job done!)

fwiw if the above *is* the electronic nav part of the syllabus I think that's spot on. Plotters don't all do the same things the same way. There's no point in teaching one manufacturer's interface in detail. Mine (5 year old C90W) won't calculate a course to steer in tidal waters. The principles of efficient navigation can be taught on paper. The common things that all plotters do should be taught to demonstrate how they can help. For the finer points that fancier systems do there's the manuals that people can read at their leisure. I suggest that greater emphasis on traditional techniques over electronic ones is entirely appropriate base on the greater effort involved in a 3 point or running fix over looking at the little boat symbol on an electronic chart
 
Quote, When one considers how many people have done dinghy sailing courses over the years and how few have taken up the sport perhaps it is time to ask why the outcome has been so disappointing. Unquote,
This hits the nail on the head. Our Club has run a cadet week for 25 years in that time many hundreds of kids have come & gone. Mostly gone. We can count those who have gone on to become full members on the fingers of two hands. Most kids come along because parents or grandparents are members & after doing cadet week you never see them again until next year. They grow up & go to college & Uni & move away. The lure of the xbox & social media does the rest.
I suspect most established clubs are the same. In the old days the route into sailing for many of us was through crewing for a mate in one of the many two handed boats of the time. The advent of the single hander largely killed that route off.. The Rya adopted the single hander as a priority with predictable results.
Today many clubs are growing old with too few young members coming in to replace those who die off.
 
Perhaps the club culture is wrong. I have never been a member of any club, not for any particular reason. I got into sailing via the regional council, out door education centres and the enthusiasm of a teacher. Outdoor education was a gateway for many outdoor activities. The demise of this system probably also contributes to the fall in numbers.
 
GHA said:
Thank goodness they RYA training scheme exists anyway, maybe not perfect to everyone's eyes but just for a moment imagine what things would be like if no training tradition existed in this country and the government felt it necessary to come up with a licensing department for yachting.....
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+1
 
GHA said:
Thank goodness they RYA training scheme exists anyway, maybe not perfect to everyone's eyes but just for a moment imagine what things would be like if no training tradition existed in this country and the government felt it necessary to come up with a licensing department for yachting.....
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Exactly.

While there are some jobsworth blazers stumbling about the RYA, they are overall a massive force for good and do an excellent job fighting our corner.

As an organisation they excell at training and development.

IMHO.
 
The only RYA training I have had is the Day Skipper Practical (with John Goode's Southern Sailing School) and the Yachtmaster Theory courses and I thought they were absolutely first-class. In those days there was no such thing as satnavs and the lack of training in their use has never bothered me. I only started using Navionics app for the first time this year and I don't see why one would wish to waste any part of the precious 5 days of a practical course learning to use a satnav. Learning how to use one is so easy that anyone could quickly master it.
 
Telstarr said:
I've revisited the possibility of doing one the RYA courses over many years, but each time I look into it following a new fit of enthusiasm, I'm always put off again. I wonder if I'm alone...

I've several years and several thousands of miles under my belt sailing our own yacht, mostly with my wife as crew. I'm a self taught cruising sailor (with a childhood background in sailing).

Each time I've talked to sailing schools (Solent and South West), they have failed to convince me on which course I should be doing, some advise Coastal Skipper, some Yachtmaster Coastal, some Yachtmaster etc. I think that this may not be so much the fault of the schools but the RYAs unfathomable course structure/hierarchy that they have to work with.

I ask what's the difference and which is a course completion certificate and which is a an RYA qualification. They kind of answer the question, but it all seems a bit wooly and I get the impression even they find it difficult to get a handle on the various courses.

I'm getting put off.

Then I say I'm less interested in getting a bit of paper and a lot more interested in learning something during the weeks course. The response is hedged... I begin to realise the course is predominantly booked up with young folk looking to fast track through the system to gain professional qualifications for work in the marine industry. The courses don't seem inviting to the cruising sailor.

I'm even more put off...

I speak to my brother who did Coastal Skipper a few years back when he was at a level that I'm probably at or exceeding now. He tells me it was a bit of a waste of time with lots of folk being shown really basic stuff. OK, so perhaps he should have done Yachtmaster.

I'm ruling out Coastal Skipper

Today I looked again at the RYA website and the various permutations of Yachtmaster... it's as clear as mud.

I'm completely put off and in the mood to just go and sail my own boat rather than phaffing about with this course malarky.

Finally.... and I know many here will disagree.... but the RYAs insistence on concentrating on paper chartwork and practical courses where they switch the plotter off for the week is the final straw.

I have paper charts and I could probably use them if needed, but I'm sure I'm not alone in using a combination of local knowledge and the GPS Plotter for all my navigation... the paper charts have not been out of the draw for years. So when will the RYA start to focus mainly on the GPS plotters with an aside to paper chart work rather than the other way around. Time for the RYA to catch up with how most sailors are navigating in the real world.
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I would recommend that you do a Coastal Skipper course, or a pre- Yachtmaster (Coastal or Offshore) exam preparation course, despite your misgivings, and do it as a group course rather than solo tuition (a useful addition, but not a substitute, in my view).

I do not think your brother's experience was typical.

My experience of such a course (years ago, but I doubt the basic approach has changed much) was that our excellent instructor actually spent very little time 'showing you what to do'. Instead I (and the other attendees in turn) was expected to do a range of fairly demanding (but fun) tasks and exercises, and then reflect on and discuss what went well and what didn't. The instructor provided helpful guidance (occasionally before, mainly after, and not much at all during these exercises), and gave really, really useful feedback on how well things had gone, and suggestions of other issues that might have come up and of other techniques/ideas that could be useful.

What I had not appreciated before the course was quite how much myself and others on the course would learn from each other (including how not to do it!). Comparing the very different attitudes, techniques, experience and knowledge we each brought to all sorts of aspects of the week was an eye opener. Nor had I anticipated how it would not just highlight and address my weaknesses, but make me realise those things I was actually rather good at, giving me greater confidence.

Skippering an unfamiliar boat and crew (not to mention being crew for a series of different skippers in short succession) was startlingly revealing of everyone's strengths and weaknesses!

It was a great week's sailing (in the depths of winter!), with lots of laughs. The cost, and time off work, was a bit of a struggle at the time, but given I still regularly use, decades later, some of the knowledge and skills, not to mention confidence and humility, I gained that week, it was a tremendous bargain and life enhancing experience.
 
capnsensible said:
Sorry but your impression is rather out of date. A visit to the RYA training pages of their website may help you to understand some of the commonly held misconceptions.
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12 months out of date. I did my CS practical May last year. Have the RYA courses really changed that much in 13 months?
ETA - DS Theory was December 2015 / Jan 2016 so again very recent.
 
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TangaraToo said:
12 months out of date. I did my CS practical May last year. Have the RYA courses really changed that much in 13 months?
ETA - DS Theory was December 2015 / Jan 2016 so again very recent.
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The content of the two theory courses, Day Skipper and Coastal have evolved over many years to incorporate a much higher ratio than your example of electronic navigation aids. The knowledge of their use should be part of the preparation prior to a Coastal Practical course, however that was gleaned.

The emphasis on the practical course, as you have found, is how to prepare and skipper a yacht on longer passages. This includes dealing with equipment failure such as electronic navigation, engine failure and weather problems such as heavy airs and fog.

As I posted previously, preparing oneself with a good grounding (!) in navigation and also I will add Rule of the Road is a great help in getting the most from the practical course. The same applies to candidates for the MCA exams at Coastal and Ofshore. Have been involved with hundreds of people doing these courses and exams over the last 20 years and the absolute common failing is poor preparation.

It's all worth it when a candidate passes and some of the post exam celebrations have been awesome!!
 
capnsensible said:
As I posted previously, preparing oneself with a good grounding (!) in navigation and also I will add Rule of the Road is a great help in getting the most from the practical course. The same applies to candidates for the MCA exams at Coastal and Ofshore. Have been involved with hundreds of people doing these courses and exams over the last 20 years and the absolute common failing is poor preparation.
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The above I completely agree with. I was very prepared hence the upgrade to CS and TBH I found the course very straight forward. As to the ratio of electronic to paper nav. I can only go by my recent experience of two different schools which differs significantly to your statement of how it is supposed to be. Interesting that the DS nav exam does not include any use of electronic nav, just paper.
Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed both courses very much and do think the RYA training scheme is good, just perhaps not up to date enough.
What I did find off putting was the number of sailing schools that wanted me to do a comp crew course before DS despite outlining my experience. All smacked a bit of milking the cash cow. Shearwater Sailing school actually listened to me, discussed my experience and hence got my business.
 
The cash cow attitude is even more prevalent at dinghy sailing level. You do L1/2 and then the sailing school suggests you become an assistant instructor, then instructor, then. SI. It's a scandal that commercial sailing schools so often do not refer or suggest a local dinghy sailing club to their trainees when they have possibly learnt to sail at the end of the course! The upshot is that many sailing clubs have had to set up sailing schools in competition. This whole area needs a complete overhaul. Perhaps the OP can feed these comments back.
Incidentally I found powerboat, safety boat and YM. excellent and learnt a great deal.
 
Bobc said:
Just pay an RYA Instructor to come out on your boat with you for 2 days to oversee how you do things and teach you the bits you're missing. You'll get much more from this than doing any of the formal courses.
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I was of a like mind to Telstarr but came across a Yachtmaster Practical Preparation course. It was really good. It filled in the gaps that I had never had to use, showed me some more up to date techniques, particularly in marinas, and highlighted what skills I would need to obtain YM practical. At the conclusion of the course, sufficiently confident, I decided to take the test, which I passed. I had taken the precaution of redoing YM theory the winter beforehand to remind me of weather and practise the DS navigation examples.
 
Ravi said:
One thing that the RYA (Yachting) courses do not teach is HOW TO SAIL!
You can get your theory and Day Skipper practical and have virtually no sailing knowledge other than how to take the things up and down. I have come across RYA qualified yachties (including a Yachmaster) whose ignorance about the basics of using the sails is astonishing. One guy, very proud of his new very expensive Scandinavian yacht, was bemused when I adjusted the kicker because "it had been set by the yard". Honestly!

Th RYA's refusal to admit that electronic navigation exists - let alone that it is the safest and most accurate form of navigation is also a bit comical.
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Clearly he had very different instructors than I have experienced nor has your example guy taken the time to learn what all the bits of string do! The question that is ringing in my mind is, "Is he a sailor or somebody who owns a sailing boat?".
 
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