D
Deleted member 36384
Guest
You raised a valid point and it's a good discussion, glad you raised it.
R.Y.A Training - what do you thinlk of it?
- Thread starter wotayottie
- Start date
You raised a valid point and it's a good discussion, glad you raised it.
Moonbeam
Well-Known Member
I've revisited the possibility of doing one the RYA courses over many years, but each time I look into it following a new fit of enthusiasm, I'm always put off again. I wonder if I'm alone...
I've several years and several thousands of miles under my belt sailing our own yacht, mostly with my wife as crew. I'm a self taught cruising sailor (with a childhood background in sailing).
Each time I've talked to sailing schools (Solent and South West), they have failed to convince me on which course I should be doing, some advise Coastal Skipper, some Yachtmaster Coastal, some Yachtmaster etc. I think that this may not be so much the fault of the schools but the RYAs unfathomable course structure/hierarchy that they have to work with.
I ask what's the difference and which is a course completion certificate and which is a an RYA qualification. They kind of answer the question, but it all seems a bit wooly and I get the impression even they find it difficult to get a handle on the various courses.
I'm getting put off.
Then I say I'm less interested in getting a bit of paper and a lot more interested in learning something during the weeks course. The response is hedged... I begin to realise the course is predominantly booked up with young folk looking to fast track through the system to gain professional qualifications for work in the marine industry. The courses don't seem inviting to the cruising sailor.
I'm even more put off...
I speak to my brother who did Coastal Skipper a few years back when he was at a level that I'm probably at or exceeding now. He tells me it was a bit of a waste of time with lots of folk being shown really basic stuff. OK, so perhaps he should have done Yachtmaster.
I'm ruling out Coastal Skipper
Today I looked again at the RYA website and the various permutations of Yachtmaster... it's as clear as mud.
I'm completely put off and in the mood to just go and sail my own boat rather than phaffing about with this course malarky.
Finally.... and I know many here will disagree.... but the RYAs insistence on concentrating on paper chartwork and practical courses where they switch the plotter off for the week is the final straw.
I have paper charts and I could probably use them if needed, but I'm sure I'm not alone in using a combination of local knowledge and the GPS Plotter for most of my navigation... the paper charts have not been out of the draw for years. So when will the RYA start to focus mainly on the GPS plotters with an aside to paper chart work rather than the other way around. Time for the RYA to catch up with how most sailors are navigating in the real world.
I've several years and several thousands of miles under my belt sailing our own yacht, mostly with my wife as crew. I'm a self taught cruising sailor (with a childhood background in sailing).
Each time I've talked to sailing schools (Solent and South West), they have failed to convince me on which course I should be doing, some advise Coastal Skipper, some Yachtmaster Coastal, some Yachtmaster etc. I think that this may not be so much the fault of the schools but the RYAs unfathomable course structure/hierarchy that they have to work with.
I ask what's the difference and which is a course completion certificate and which is a an RYA qualification. They kind of answer the question, but it all seems a bit wooly and I get the impression even they find it difficult to get a handle on the various courses.
I'm getting put off.
Then I say I'm less interested in getting a bit of paper and a lot more interested in learning something during the weeks course. The response is hedged... I begin to realise the course is predominantly booked up with young folk looking to fast track through the system to gain professional qualifications for work in the marine industry. The courses don't seem inviting to the cruising sailor.
I'm even more put off...
I speak to my brother who did Coastal Skipper a few years back when he was at a level that I'm probably at or exceeding now. He tells me it was a bit of a waste of time with lots of folk being shown really basic stuff. OK, so perhaps he should have done Yachtmaster.
I'm ruling out Coastal Skipper
Today I looked again at the RYA website and the various permutations of Yachtmaster... it's as clear as mud.
I'm completely put off and in the mood to just go and sail my own boat rather than phaffing about with this course malarky.
Finally.... and I know many here will disagree.... but the RYAs insistence on concentrating on paper chartwork and practical courses where they switch the plotter off for the week is the final straw.
I have paper charts and I could probably use them if needed, but I'm sure I'm not alone in using a combination of local knowledge and the GPS Plotter for most of my navigation... the paper charts have not been out of the draw for years. So when will the RYA start to focus mainly on the GPS plotters with an aside to paper chart work rather than the other way around. Time for the RYA to catch up with how most sailors are navigating in the real world.
Last edited:
awol
Well-Known Member
So why not just ante-up £210 for the Yachtmaster Offshore CofC? No need for course completions just one day on your own boat with an examiner and a crew of your choosing. Then you will have the satisfaction of knowing that your standard is high enough or you will fail and realise you don't know as much as you thought.
A word of warning though - you will have to navigate blind without a GPS using paper charts and DR; you will need a hand bearing compass; you will have to work out tide heights and rates from charts and almanacs, including the dreaded secondary port calculations; you will need a VHF SRC and a first aid course completion certificate; you will need an extensive knowledge of IRPCS including lights and day signals; you will need a motoring cone and anchor ball; and, of course, an inexhaustible supply of nibbles and tea; all that on top off 50 days and 2,500nm experience. None of that requires a course but it may help.
D
Deleted member 36384
Guest
That is not true. They do not insist on that. Read my post number 19, the RYA have moved massively forward on electronic navigation. True, non electronic navigation is taught and it is expected that coastal skippers can navigate if there was no GPS available.
Moonbeam
Well-Known Member
I've read your post #19 and that's good to hear... but post #18 seems to disagree with you, that course was taken last year and the plotter was switched off for the entire week.
In post #19 you said
Navigation with electronic devices is now given greater emphasis and it is different from the 1990s to a point. The RYA is now far more aligned with real world navigation with plotters
But this still sounds like the RYA are dragging their feet a bit to me.
Last edited:
Ravi
Well-Known Member
One thing that the RYA (Yachting) courses do not teach is HOW TO SAIL!
You can get your theory and Day Skipper practical and have virtually no sailing knowledge other than how to take the things up and down. I have come across RYA qualified yachties (including a Yachmaster) whose ignorance about the basics of using the sails is astonishing. One guy, very proud of his new very expensive Scandinavian yacht, was bemused when I adjusted the kicker because "it had been set by the yard". Honestly!
Th RYA's refusal to admit that electronic navigation exists - let alone that it is the safest and most accurate form of navigation is also a bit comical.
You can get your theory and Day Skipper practical and have virtually no sailing knowledge other than how to take the things up and down. I have come across RYA qualified yachties (including a Yachmaster) whose ignorance about the basics of using the sails is astonishing. One guy, very proud of his new very expensive Scandinavian yacht, was bemused when I adjusted the kicker because "it had been set by the yard". Honestly!
Th RYA's refusal to admit that electronic navigation exists - let alone that it is the safest and most accurate form of navigation is also a bit comical.
Moonbeam
Well-Known Member
I have / can do all of the above (apart from my secondary tidal calcs are rusty which is forever on my to do list and my RYA first aid cert has lapsed), but I'm under no illusions, there is a LOT that I do not know. That's why I have wanted to do a course that can help me fill in those gaps. The trouble I have found is that as a self taught cruising sailor, the RYA course structure makes it seem difficult to find a level to begin to find a course that will give you meaningful tuition.
Just doing the exam (is that what you mean by CofC??) would help me to find where I am lacking and it is indeed something I have considered. I'm the king of nibbles
[163233]
...
I've noticed this too with theory courses, the franchised out approach has led to quite fragmented coverage, there are lots of instructors all operating as one-man-bands resulting in it being very difficult to find a course that actually fits with your life.
D
Deleted member 36384
Guest
The syllabus has been changing and as said it looks like radar will be included in the future. They will always be in a catch up mode as the market changes faster than they can react too. However, exercises like the one in the OP happen from time to time to test relevancy of their schemes and they do adjust. Also the old school examiners, most from the pre MCA days, are being replaced now with a younger breed, hence attitudes as well.
You are wrong in making that claim. The RYA have their own chart plotter and software for teaching electronic navigation and both the theory course and practical course syllabus include electronic navigation. In addition all sea school training boats must be fitted with plotter to teach electronic navigation.
For example: http://www.rya.org.uk/courses-training/courses/navigation/Pages/day-skipper.aspx
Sure, it's not perfect but it is aimed at leisure sailors and the relevant skills, not future master mariners. A good example is furling gear and in mast reefing systems, pretty common place, hence, selecting head sails, bending on sails, flaking and stowing have been dropped, or reduced in relevance in the syllabus . Even some sail controls like halyard tension, cunningham and jiffy reefing cant all be taught anymore on sea school boats.
All these comments should, and could be made to the RYA by members or non members, they do listen and gather information to make changes. They are an easy organisation to bash, but they do a good job of it, in my opinion.
Bobc
Well-Known Member
I have / can do all of the above (apart from my secondary tidal calcs are rusty which is forever on my to do list and my RYA first aid cert has lapsed), but I'm under no illusions, there is a LOT that I do not know. That's why I have wanted to do a course that can help me fill in those gaps. The trouble I have found is that as a self taught cruising sailor, the RYA course structure makes it seem difficult to find a level to begin to find a course that will give you meaningful tuition.
Just doing the exam (is that what you mean by CofC??) would help me to find where I am lacking and it is indeed something I have considered. I'm the king of nibbles
Just pay an RYA Instructor to come out on your boat with you for 2 days to oversee how you do things and teach you the bits you're missing. You'll get much more from this than doing any of the formal courses.
Iminei
Well-Known Member
That must depend on the instructor to a large degree. On the DS course I did we did a lot on sail trim, use of the kicker & the traveller and had the genoa poled out. On the other hand the instructor on my Comp Crew course had never flown a spinnaker. But what can be achieved in a week is limited.
GrahamM376
Well-Known Member
Strongly disagree that electronic is the safest and most accurate. Electronics can fail, as our plotter has done in the past. Fortunately, we use paper and mark up waypoints then transfer to gps so hard copy always available. Charts generally have more detail and are far cheaper to update than wide area cartridges.
Ravi
Well-Known Member
Yes, it does depend on the instructor - but it shouldn't!
And, yes, as you say what can be done in 5 days is limited.
As a solution to these two problems, I would say -
1. People doing DS practical should, compulsorily, have competent crew qualifications or equivalent experience. (The RYA may 'recommend' that DS candidates have prior experience but, in actuality, the DS week is the first time many have stepped on board.)
DS course time is wasted with basics like how to safely use a mooring cleat, winch, etc. How can you assess someone as a skipper if they haven't mastered the fundamentals of crewing?
This would free up more time for dealing with 'sailing'.
2. Ideally, to get any RYA sailing qualification students should have at least one day sailing in a dinghy. Undeniably the best (if wettest) way to understand what the flappy things can and can't do. This could be either a separate one day course or part of the competent crew.
Just some ideas.
Judders
Well-Known Member
The more people I've sailed with who are proud of their RYA qualifications the more I realise I do not want them.
wotayottie
Well-Known Member
If they believed in that then they would make a theory course certificate a requirement for taking a practical course.
capnsensible
Well-Known Member
Thanks, but Ive taught that course over a hundred times in various parts of the world, at various Recognised Training Centres to a wide variety of students of different backgrounds and nationalities!
The common theme I can relay is that despite all advice given on course suitability, questions on background navigation and sailing experience, its very often the case that those who havent completed the theory course generally struggle.
capnsensible
Well-Known Member
Of course its believed. There are a number of ways of getting navigation experience without a formal course. Schools simply ask that prior to starting a course, you have sufficient knowledge to put into practice. Prior Preparation Prevents, and all that.
Ravi
Well-Known Member
There is no arguing that electronic navigation is more accurate. Glonass will give you a position to within 2 metres.
Here are 10 Reasons why the RYA should acknowledge that electronic navigation is safer.
1. Paper charts get wet - even for Robin Knox Johnson. My £100 Garmin Handheld Plotter is waterproof and floats.
2. Paper charts are not much use when you are solo and need to be in the cockpit in a strong blow. They get soaked and blown overboard. A plotter doesn't.
3. Paper chart updates are less frequent and manual update is an inaccurate process. Electronic chart are updated more frequently and are easily updated with no risk of error.
4. Even for the best navigator in the world, getting a paper position is much less accurate. Electronic positioning is exact
5. Plotting position on a paper chart is prone to human error. GPS plotter position is not.
6. Log speed on a boat is inaccurate. GPS speed is accurate.
7. Magnetic variation stated on charts is never 100% precise. Moreover, variation can alter locally making fixes inaccurate. Not a problem with GPS.
8. Magnetic compasses can be damaged or affected by local factors giving an incorrect position.
9. Charts are not much use in a liferaft. A handheld plotter is.
10. Charts can't alert you to cross tack error or shallowing water or other hazards, if you take your eye off the ball.
These are the sort of reasons that airline pilots do not fly with paper charts on their knees.
The traditional argument is that electronic navigation instruments are vulnerable to failure. In this day and age, when most boats will not only have a plotter but also a Lithium battery powered phone, tablet or laptop for each crew member, this argument is redundant.
The other argument is that US military GPS satellites will be 'switched off'. With the advent of Russian, European, Chinese, Indian and Japanese positioning satellites, this is no longer the case. They also give accuracy to 2 metres.
With the increasing accuracy, reliability, low price and easy availability of complimentary electronic navigation products which can run on boat electrics, alkaline or lithium batteries, there is no reason to have paper charts other than the fact that they are rather lovely to handle.
One day the RYA will acknowledge this.
Here are 10 Reasons why the RYA should acknowledge that electronic navigation is safer.
1. Paper charts get wet - even for Robin Knox Johnson. My £100 Garmin Handheld Plotter is waterproof and floats.
2. Paper charts are not much use when you are solo and need to be in the cockpit in a strong blow. They get soaked and blown overboard. A plotter doesn't.
3. Paper chart updates are less frequent and manual update is an inaccurate process. Electronic chart are updated more frequently and are easily updated with no risk of error.
4. Even for the best navigator in the world, getting a paper position is much less accurate. Electronic positioning is exact
5. Plotting position on a paper chart is prone to human error. GPS plotter position is not.
6. Log speed on a boat is inaccurate. GPS speed is accurate.
7. Magnetic variation stated on charts is never 100% precise. Moreover, variation can alter locally making fixes inaccurate. Not a problem with GPS.
8. Magnetic compasses can be damaged or affected by local factors giving an incorrect position.
9. Charts are not much use in a liferaft. A handheld plotter is.
10. Charts can't alert you to cross tack error or shallowing water or other hazards, if you take your eye off the ball.
These are the sort of reasons that airline pilots do not fly with paper charts on their knees.
The traditional argument is that electronic navigation instruments are vulnerable to failure. In this day and age, when most boats will not only have a plotter but also a Lithium battery powered phone, tablet or laptop for each crew member, this argument is redundant.
The other argument is that US military GPS satellites will be 'switched off'. With the advent of Russian, European, Chinese, Indian and Japanese positioning satellites, this is no longer the case. They also give accuracy to 2 metres.
With the increasing accuracy, reliability, low price and easy availability of complimentary electronic navigation products which can run on boat electrics, alkaline or lithium batteries, there is no reason to have paper charts other than the fact that they are rather lovely to handle.
One day the RYA will acknowledge this.
capnsensible
Well-Known Member
Have you looked at any RYA training syllabus in the last 10 years? You will be happy to know that your points are very valid and have long been included in the training schemes. Well done.
TangaraToo
RIP
The emphasis is still very much on paper chart navigation though, 90/10. Almost a token gesture.