Questions on moving to the Med

[MRC]

I have done a few searches of previous posts but feel it would be easier to be direct and ask the forum directly. We have been boating in the UK in one shape or form for the last 15 years. From Fletcher sports boats and jetskis in Poole Harbour to, Sunseeker Superhawks in the Solent, and for the last few years Portofinos & Predators. This sounds selfish but for the last 6-8 years the boat has been for mostly myself and boys / lads oriented trips. My kids are now 8 & 5 and love being on the boat, they love messing about in the rib, jetski & canoes we carry plus anything to do with being on the water.

With the family getting more involved plus a friend would be interested in doing a half share on the boat im thinking of moving her to the med. Shortlist being Mallorca, Antibes or Genova.

I have it fairly easy with the boat in the UK as we own the mooring, we have a great guy looking after the boat in return for beer tokens, I know the right people to contact when things go wrong and feel we generally do not get ripped off. Any job that needs doing we seem to know the right people to call and get it done quickly.

The thing that worrys me most about moving to the Med is the full boat managment, lets say we dont get down that often or pre our trip who can we get to clean her, who do we call to get issues sorted, or to do routine serviving and checks, does anyone offer laundry services etc for boats.

Are there good boat managemnet style individuals out there who look after your boats without giving you the feeling of being ripped off ( We bought and sold a boat in Antibes a few years ago and in teh short time of ownership it felt like everyone was on the make)

The boat is give or take 20M (19.5M x 5M).

Where should we be heading to, which marinas, do we MCA code her and offer for charter?

Its an open ended question and any comments would be very helpful. real life stories of being based out there would be good.

Mike.

(UK boating is going to be taken care of by the new cabin RIB which is in build, we have more fun on the smaller boats in the UK)

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

MRC, I suppose I can offer an opinion on this as I have had my boat in SoF, Spain, Majorca and now Croatia in the last 8yrs and getting a good 'bloke what does' to look after my boat is always paramount because when I go to my boat, I dont want to waste my limited time fixing silly little problems arising from my previous trip. You will find guardiennage companies all over the Med who will look after your boat for a fixed monthly fee and their service may include cleaning it regularly, starting engines and generator regularly, checking lines and carrying out specific maintenance tasks for an extra charge. I have found guardiennage companies to be extremely variable; some are OK and some just rip you off. By far the best way IMHO is to find a local, usually ex pat so there are no language difficulties, to look after your boat and with whom you can build a personal relationship such that he or she understands how you want your boat kept. I prefer to negotiate individual charges for specific services so with my last guy in Majorca we agreed fixed charges for interior or exterior cleaning, scrubbing sterngear and labour rates for jobs (in my case €30/hour for standard jobs and €40/hour for specialists). We also agreed charges for laundry cleaning per towel and per sheet etc. You could even arrange for your person to buy food and drink to put onboard for your visit but we didnt. None of this comes cheap of course. Expect to spend several thousands of Euros every year paying somebody to do jobs that you might have done yourself in the UK. Generally speaking I found SoF to be very expensive for guardiennage services, Spain and Majorca to be tolerable and Croatia relatively cheap so pays your money, takes your choice. If you end up in Majorca, I can give you a couple of contacts for people who would look after your boat.
With regard to charter, yes you could offer your boat for charter through a local agent but dont expect to make much money; its a way of defraying some of the costs, not a profitable business. You will need to MCA code your boat and this will cost again several thousand Euros and in Spain you will have to buy annual licences. In Spain also there is the issue of matriculation tax being levied on foreign owned boats plying for charter. I wont go into this in detail, just search the forum for past threads.
As to where to head for, this is just a personal opinion but IMHO the Balearics offer the finest cruising in the W Med, they're easy to get to from the UK with plenty of choices of flights, there's plenty to do for young kids, the weather especially in Majorca is probably more settled on average than SoF or mainland Spain and the costs are tolerable. With the matriculation tax issues, many marinas have spaces but, for the same reason, I wouldn't bother with charter. If you must charter, then SoF is better with no tax issues as yet and higher charter rates anyway but then all costs are higher and marina spaces much more limited.
One last thing. Do not kid yourself that keeping a boat in the Med will ever be cheaper than the UK. Even if marina costs are similar to the Solent (as they are in most Majorca marinas), the extra costs of flights, boat maintenance and guardiennage and other costs like having to buy all food locally, will mean that you will be spending more on keeping your boat. FWIW, I reckon on €30-40k pa for my 18m boat. You will also be spending less time on your boat simply because its so much more of a hassle to get to your boat, especially with a family. Yup, if you're a single bloke without money cares, you can jump on a plane on Fri night on a whim and return Sun night but taking a family requires a lot more pre planning especially once the kids get a bit older and their school and social commitments intervene. For several years, our Med boating has been limited to school holidays and half terms but hopefully, our youngest is off to uni next year so we are planning to spend more time on our boat

 

[Hurricane]

We moved our boating from the Solent to the Med two or three years ago.

I agree with most that Mike says but the costs on mainland Spain are, IMO, cheaper than the top UK areas. Poole is amoungst, if not the most expensive berthing in the UK.

In moving to the Med we sold a 15m boat and bought a 20m one. The cost of keeping and maintaining the 20m boat on mainland Spain is less that the 15m one in the Hamble.

Other than that, I agree with everything that Deleted User is saying.
He used to berth in Mallorca and I'm sure its more expensive there.
We berth in Sant Carles (the new MDL marina in Spain) -100 miles or so from Mallorca so only a few hours run to some of the best cruising in the Med.
Our marina also has the benefit of a large protected lagoon where you can do all that watersporty things you like. The lagoon is about 7 miles long by about one and a half miles wide and about 6 metres deep - perfetc for a bit of water skiing and literally just outside the marina entrance. Enough of that though.

Mike also says that transfers to and from can be expensive - yes that can be true but also the converse - off season travel is very cheap and, remember, the season is much longer so, for example, you can pick up some late season transfers for very little money - when the water is still warm enough to swim comfortably. I once booked a flight home on November 5th for 1 euro each and the water was still warm enough to go swimming before we left.

As Mike says, forget chartering in Spanish waters - not only cost restrictive - IMO you would have to register the boat as Spanish and then there are limitations on you as a non spanish driving it. Also you have to have a Spanish skipper to move it anywhere - chartering is far too restrictive. Also think about chartering. If you havent chartered already, do you really want your pride and joy being trampled over by people who dont care much. Also to get the best out of your charter you would have to let it out at the time when you most want to use it yourself. I'm sure that others on here from the SoF will be able to give their views on charter from the French perspective.

So, the big 64 thousand dollar question - Med or UK - no contest - the Med every time - the weather is just so much better.

 

[MRC]

Many thanks for the reply. That all ties in with what I had going on in my head. I know its only a few hours on from my initial post but it would look like things have progressed. The person who expressed interest in buying half share of the boat has said go for it. Boat & Berth.

The plan is now to MCA code the boat, other than a few of the engine room points and signage she is pretty much there so shoulnt be too hard on the pocket. She would only be out for a few weeks charter each year and this would be by word or mouth.

South of France for some reason tops the list. We spent many years in Mallorca when I was younger and have chartered there hence maybe somthing different. Antibes tops the list for what we are after, downside being it looks like no 20M moorings so we would have to buy a 23M mooring. How long is a piece of string but what should a South quay 23M mooring sell for?

The boat is based in Southampton so after a berth has been secured next is to decide wether to take her down ourselves or via shipping company. At the stage I favour a shipping comany as would rather have a few weeks on board once there rather than the trip.

The guy I use to look after the boat in the UK has expressed an interest to look aftr it in the MED, may be an option until we get settled.

Now the thing niggleing me is that we have already booked our summer holidays elsewhere....

 

[Nick_H]

I keep my 18m boat in Antibes, and I agree that finding honest and reliable people to do work on the boat is a big problem, i've been ripped off more times than I haven't. Having said that, most of my problems were in trying to get modifications done, if you just want regular servicing and routine repairs, there are main dealers who are reliable enough.

Whilst I agree with Deleted User on most of what he says, the beauty of SoF is that you can have weeks on end of flat calm settled weather in the summer, I thought the Balearics were windier, though i've never kept a boat there.

We live in Lymington, so boating in the UK would be so much easier, but you just don't get the settled weather, warm sea and warm evenings that make SoF boating so fabulous.

 

[MRC]

Thanks Hurricane,

St Carles could be a viable option. Triangle had a 20M berth for rent recently for £5k PA which no one could complain at. The set up there looks good, and the photos of the swimming pool/ club look great. Is the fouling still and issue? Do you have good contacts for keeping the boat in tip top condition.

I currently charter the boat for the odd days charter in the UK on alocal coding and fully understand what you say. Some of my previous boats were heavily day chartered in the solent and wear and tear did show. I used to skipper myself so it was also a way of me getting out and using the boat too.

My costs in the UK are fairly low and any move will be a step up. But if it means more use along with a bit more quaity family us it ha to be worth it.

 

[Nick_H]

South quay 23m moorings were selling for about €0.5m, not sure if that's dropping as there's only about 10yrs left on the leases. If that's a bit steep, there are some 15m moorings where you can keep 18m boats, so long as the beam doesn't exceed 5m. They were selling for about €275,000 - €300,000 a year or two ago, not sure now.

There are a bunch of forumites in Antibes, and we have on occasions arranged for UK engineers to travel out to service all the boats. If you have a reliable boat minder who can also do minor maintenance and wants to move to Antibes, then maybe he could look after more than one boat?

 

[MRC]

Nick_H - Living by the ea and not having a boat would be very very hard !!! Are you the person who MBY did an article on who has a boat in the Med and UK? As mentioned above most of our UK boating is day boating so a decent size RIB will cover that.

 

[Nick_H]

Nick_H - Living by the ea and not having a boat would be very very hard !!! Are you the person who MBY did an article on who has a boat in the Med and UK? As mentioned above most of our UK boating is day boating so a decent size RIB will cover that.

Yep, we have a fast day boat/overnighter in Lymington

 

[Hurricane]

Thanks Hurricane,

St Carles could be a viable option. Triangle had a 20M berth for rent recently for £5k PA which no one could complain at. The set up there looks good, and the photos of the swimming pool/ club look great. Is the fouling still and issue? Do you have good contacts for keeping the boat in tip top condition.

I currently charter the boat for the odd days charter in the UK on alocal coding and fully understand what you say. Some of my previous boats were heavily day chartered in the solent and wear and tear did show. I used to skipper myself so it was also a way of me getting out and using the boat too.

My costs in the UK are fairly low and any move will be a step up. But if it means more use along with a bit more quaity family us it ha to be worth it.

I too live by the sea in Devon but unlike Nick, I have managed to avoid the temptation to get a boat locally - maybe sometime!!!

Sant Carles
I set up a berth holders forum for Sant Carles - you need to register but its free. Why not have a look - you will get the feel for the place - there is a photo gallery of recent pics etc. The forum will give you an idea of all the points - good and bad. the website address is www.scmchat.com - just sign up and someone will approve your access within a few hours.

As you say the fouling isnt good - much better than the early days though. To offset this, the marina offers a really cheap lift and scrub deal - much cheaper than a diver. Our 20m Princess costs us about £120 to lift scrub and relaunch - and then she's perfectly clean. Fouling anywhere in the Med is significantly more than in the UK. Modern antifoul treatments are good on the hull but the props etc are the problem - and thats wherever you go in the Med - water temp - you cant have everything.

Here's a pic of the underside of our boat after the heat last summer when the marina water temp was well over 30 degrees. You can see that the antifoul works - its just the metalwork thats the problem.

OK - so I'm a big supporter of Sant Carles.
But that hasnt stopped me checking out other places.
We are planning a run down to meet some of the Antibes guys (Nick and jfm etc) for Easter this year so watch this space!!

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Whilst I agree with Deleted User on most of what he says, the beauty of SoF is that you can have weeks on end of flat calm settled weather in the summer, I thought the Balearics were windier, though i've never kept a boat there.

Actually, statistically, Palma is less windy on average than Nice, especially in winter and has slightly higher average temps. But Palma is on the south side of Majorca and, subjectively, we always felt that the north side of Majorca and all of Menorca were windier than the south side of Majorca. Conversely, Ibiza seems to have the balmiest conditions of any of the islands. We did think though, that the sea breeze effect was more pronounced in the Balearics compared to SoF and the geography of the islands do throw up some odd wind effects which can catch you out.
You have to be careful about defining the SoF. Further west towards Marseille, the mistral is much more of a factor. I remember spending 2 weeks cruising that area in August 2005 and it was almost non stop F5-6, sometimes more.
Palma is a good base because the bay its sheltered from three sides and is only open to the south so you can usually always find a sheltered anchorage somewhere

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Mike also says that transfers to and from can be expensive - yes that can be true but also the converse - off season travel is very cheap and, remember, the season is much longer so, for example, you can pick up some late season transfers for very little money - when the water is still warm enough to swim comfortably. I once booked a flight home on November 5th for 1 euro each and the water was still warm enough to go swimming before we left.

Agreed, Mike, but the crucial factor is kids. Seems like the OP has kids. Unless you've got very accomodating grandparents who are willing to look after your kids during term time, you're stuffed. Then when they become teenagers, they get a social life of their own and they dont want to go anywhere with their hideously embarassing parents but they're still too young to be left on their own. For the last few yrs, the only way we've been able to bribe our 17yr old to come on the boat is to agree to take several of his disgustingly untidy mates with us so its only half terms and school holidays for us, when the flights are expensive as well

 

[Nick_H]

Yep, should have been clear, the Cote D'Azur is settled in the summer, further west can be windy a lot of the time all year round.

 

[jfm]

I've been in Med since 2003, Lymington before that, and wouldn't change. Reason is the weather. I'm in antibes, and find the weather mostly perfect in the Summer and the cruising will keep you entertained for several years

There are plenty of good folk to look after the boat. You can choose from full time employee (which I'd recommend) to hourly paid help or guardiennage services

Imho the crusing is better than mainland spain, but each to their own. Mahon is 235nm from Antibes, so Blearix is very doable for a weeks holiday. Corsica is 100nm and beautiful

As others have said, it gets windy/mistrally if you go west of St Trop. But you need to be able to get home to UK easily, so you're better berthing within 20mins of Nice airport, so you wont be as far west as St Trop anyway.

23x6 in Antibes is €460k if you play a long game and settle for quai 1 on the south side. You will be doing well if you get a Mole Sud 23x6 for €500k, but if you offer €540 you'll get a Mole sud quite quickly. I paid 500k for a mole Sud in May 2010.

I wouldn't count on much charter in SofF. The pred <20m have only one crew berth iirc, which rules them out for anything other than day charter. Guests will want a skipper and a stewie, so you need 2 crew berths to do a several-days charter. sure you can sleep the skipper in one of the main guest cabins, but that will narrow your clientele to those that will accept that. The package all the big spenders want is two crew in a crew cabin(s) and if you get that right you're in business. If and only if you get things set up well for charter and the boat is top-condition and top-equipped, €35k pa ay of charter income is pretty easy while still leaving plenty of peak time for you. That's not a profit but it covers all the boat overheads

To be charter competitve (no VAT and 1/2 price detax fuel) your boat must be coded and part 1 registered as "commercial vessel".

If i have wrong end of stick and you intend bareboat charter that might work but it is pretty rare there for a 20m boat,. In fact I've never encountered it in SofF. Reason is you cannot competitively have one boat that is suitable for both crewed and bareboat charter. For bareboat, you'd have to have the boat NOT registered as commercial, which would then deny you any competitiveness in the crewed charter market, which is the larger market, so no-one does bareboat. Demand for it seems non existent as far as i can see

If you want more detailed thoughts on charter please advise which exact model of Pred you have and what year

Sure it is possible to complain of rip offs but suppliers there know they're in a hot market and they're only doing what we've all done to be able to buy big powerboats to begin with which is play capitalist and charge as much as we can for whatever we sell in your business. So give em a break i say. Obviously, play the market and don't buy if you feel the price is too high.

Good luck whatever you decide

 

[CMJ]

For bareboat, you'd have to have the boat NOT registered as commercial

Why's that BTW out of interest? Would the boat not have to be MCA coded still (and therefore need to be Part 1 registered as 'Commercial Vessel')?

 

[MRC]

Many thanks for the replies. Especially berth guide prices.

My boat is a 2008 pred 62. With garage option for a sit down jet bike and a williams on the platform so not even a single crew cabin on this one.

As mentioned in a previous Post, the only charter I would be doing are via people I know or work with. I have four people lined up who would pay £15k per week to use the boat. Again I can get away with crew using the bunk cabin. Through different contacts all my uk day charters have been associates of some sort.

I have no problem with people making money. Just I also happen to like value, which is not always measured in monetary terms as we all know.

You antibe bunch sound like a good and well informed group.

My thinking is we will only find answers to most of my worries once / if we make the move.

 

[MRC]

Having binned (recycled) my copy of mby magazine I can't check but wasn't there a berth for sale in classifieds ? Would Anyone know which quay it's on?

 

[jfm]

Many thanks for the replies. Especially berth guide prices.

My boat is a 2008 pred 62. With garage option for a sit down jet bike and a williams on the platform so not even a single crew cabin on this one.

As mentioned in a previous Post, the only charter I would be doing are via people I know or work with. I have four people lined up who would pay £15k per week to use the boat. Again I can get away with crew using the bunk cabin. Through different contacts all my uk day charters have been associates of some sort.

I have no problem with people making money. Just I also happen to like value, which is not always measured in monetary terms as we all know.

You antibe bunch sound like a good and well informed group.

My thinking is we will only find answers to most of my worries once / if we make the move.

Very nice boat; it'll turn heads there and have easily long enough legs to cruise all the good places like french coats, W italy, Corsica/sardinia, etc . OK, if you have privately sourced charters then all fine and ignore my comments which were applicable only to the open market. I assume from your comment that it will always be crewed charter, in which case it makes sense to register commercially then you get detax fuel and vat-free supplies/servicing etc.

If the boat needs anything gear-wise, but it before you leave uk becuase much cheaper. Eg watermaker would be handy in high summer when berths are difficult/unavailable/400euros

On the coding, beware the fact differnet surveyors interpet the rules differently. If you code in UK and then have your annual inspections done by a surveyor in SofF, the latter might not agree with the first surveyor so it can result in a bit of dispute. I use graham booth (googlable) who has a uk base AND a SofF base near antibes to avoid this. He's a good guy and I can recommend him

Feel free to ask more questions if needed. Several forumites on here are in Antibes and Mole Sud so plenty of info availalble. Best of luck. You gonna make the move for summer 2011?

 

[jfm]

Why's that BTW out of interest? Would the boat not have to be MCA coded still (and therefore need to be Part 1 registered as 'Commercial Vessel')?

Bit of a shaggy dog story.. In France a commercial boat that is crewed gets big tax advantages. Virtually every boat registered as commercial takes those advantages, and the douanes who inspect frequently will always (quite reasonably) assume any commercial boat they come across is taking those advantages. One of the requirements for the tax benefit is the boat is crewed. So if a boat is found with commercial papers and NOT crewed (eg on bareboat charter) the douanes get quite antsy and assume you are taking the tax breaks but not following the "crewed" rules. Even if you're not taking the tax breaks, proving you're not will spoil your day. You can't put an innocent bareboat customer in that position: it's like pushing him out among unleashed lions. No-one in the charter business offers commercial reg boats to bareboat customers

Bareboat chartering does not ever get the tax breaks so if you want to offer bareboats for charter you need to reg them as pleasure boats then the customers do not get hassled when the douanes inspect them

 

[MRC]

Looks like all steam ahead. Shipping quote €22k ex tax. Berth finding now under way, as the boat is only 19.6M LOA it almost feels a waste buying a 23M mooring. Will head down for a few days next week with the family to have a scout around but I see on Inwards website thy have 18M x 5.49M berths in Cap Ferrat, having never been would anyone know if they have a 10% tolerance on LOA as the beam looks ok.

Thanks for the heads up on coding, I was going to use a local known surveyor but your points are valid and have made me think again.

I do have two bookings on the boat in the UK for May and June so the move may be mid season subject to berth and shipping.