Questioned by RNLI re not wearing lifejacket.

[oldharry]

Much feeling both ways on this. IMHO there is a time and place for everything, and its down to me to decide whether I need the added insurance of my LJ.

But surely there is a wider issue behind this? The RNLI's stated puprose is the saving of life at sea. Does that give it a 'policing' role over other sea users. Past threads have raised the spectre of 'compulsory rescue' - how much should the RNLI's role be seen as preventitive, trying to stop accidents before they happen rather than being a marine AA, sorting out problemns as they arise.

I would certainly resent my competence as a yachtsman being questioned by some busybody telling me how to organise my boating.

On the other hand, it is would be the lifeboats rather grisly role to retrieve my body and return it to my family if the worst did happen. It is the same for the police having to deal with the fatal results of bad driving, and I do understand the frustration of those who have the highly unpleasant 'hands on' task of clearing up the mess whether on the roads or at sea when they then see yet another prat taking exactly the same risks.

But on the whole I really dont want to see RNLI become a sort of marine policing body telling us what we can and cannot do.

 

[Scotty_Tradewind]

Wearing a lifejacket may not always be a necessity of course.
Whilst going around the IOW early hours this Sat a.m. my crew and I decided it would be lifejackets all the way with safety lines attached to the lower cockpit attachment points so they were more than likely not going to go far over the wires. If we went for'ard it was agreed that we wore the 3 way line with the shorter line attached to the jackstays so it meant a crawl along the sidedecks until the shrouds wher we could attach the longer and shorter lines in suitable positions. Again no fear of being covered by water if going over.
Because I only have 2 seperate safety harnesses onboard we all chose to have the lifejackets on and of course many will have seen the vid' of the round the World sailor who had just unclipped and went through the safety wires, thankfully wearing his LJ.and was recovered.
The next day was a clear sunny day and we agreed that LJ's would be worn if going for'ard and safety lines worn only if doing things for any time standing at the mast.
On the final day we had calm conditions, light winds clear viz, sunny day, no LJ's or safety lines required.
You just do what is required at the time if well prepared and knowledgeable.
If you'r a beginner with little experience or training then probably LJ's at all times. ??

I wonder how sensitive the RNLI gentleman is/was. He may have recently recovered a couple of bodies from the sea without LJ's??

 

[prv]

at risk of being called a hypocrite I confess to not wearing one in my tender. I just felt that with so many people saying they don't wear a life jacket I would put my hand up and say that I do wear one and why.

And that does strike me as an odd assessment. I'm far more likely to wear one in a tender than anywhere else. I don't remember ever having had an "oh shlt that was close, nearly fell in there" moment on the deck of a yacht, but I have nearly flipped an inflatable with an outboard and I've been in some very tippy hard dinghies.

My default position is not to wear a lifejacket on a yacht unless there's a reason to, whereas I'd wear one in a tender unless there was a reason not to.

Pete

 

[Scotty_Tradewind]

Much feeling both ways on this. IMHO there is a time and place
I would certainly resent my competence as a yachtsman being questioned by some busybody telling me how to organise my boating.

?????

 

[Kochi]

And that does strike me as an odd assessment. I'm far more likely to wear one in a tender than anywhere else. I don't remember ever having had an "oh shlt that was close, nearly fell in there" moment on the deck of a yacht, but I have nearly flipped an inflatable with an outboard and I've been in some very tippy hard dinghies.

My default position is not to wear a lifejacket on a yacht unless there's a reason to, whereas I'd wear one in a tender unless there was a reason not to.

Pete

What that says to me is that I should wear one in my tender not that I shouldn't wear one on our yacht. I suppose I feel that I'm never far from the shore when using the tender on the river which is probably unwise considering the amount of clothing I may be wearing.

Talking of tippy dinghies our Beneteau is a pretty tippy yacht!

 

[colingr]

Since wearing an LJ became compusory in our boat to set a good example to the sprogs I've carried on and now it's just a habit to put the LJ on as soon as I step aboard. I have to say I don't notice it so am quite happy to carry on wearing it. Guests aboard, if over 18 get the option. Sprogs no choice, it's an LJ or they stay behind.

As an adult I feel that the choice it up to the individual and I won't preach. For the smaller ones their safety is my responsibility so I will do all that I think is necessary to keep them safe. That includes not being up on the foredeck at speed or perched on the rear sun pad.

As to anyone else on their boats, why should I care what they do?

 

[Searush]

RNLI do some superb safety briefings - for boats (& their owners) plus club talks, they publish some excellent general sea safety booklets & pamphlets & give free advice on guarded beaches. All this is excellent preventative work - and it is up to the recipients to decide which if any (or all) of the advice is particularly relevant to their water based activity.

All we have here is an individual interacting with someone in a boat in a manner that was intended to be helpful, but was perceived as patronising/ annoying. Sounds like a case of misunderstanding or perhaps inappropriate tone/ language rather than the end of our freedom to wear L/J's or PBA's as & when we see fit.

I am a Shoreline member & from a former career understand the need for simple, focussed messages when trying to mount a campaign. I also see some blatantly dangerous behaviour in & out of boats by people with limited experience of the sea & our coast. The RNLI message is not specifically targetted at the experienced sea user who may be able to use their own judgement, but it basically has to be a "one phrase fits all" campaign.

I fail to understand why people need to fight so hard to defend the judgement that they take - when they will ultimately be responsible for any consequences of their decisions.

 

[Bosun Higgs]

On my boat everyone wears a life jacket. Wife does so anyway and for the racing crew it would be selfish not to - we'd lose out badly having to go back and fish them out rather than relying on the OOD's launch. With a LJ we can just leave them.

Don't mind the RNLI approaching me. The way they spend money on flash buildings and exotic training centres etc needs questioning at the grass roots level, but they dont seem to want to answer

 

[Ubergeekian]

Since wearing an LJ became compusory in our boat to set a good example to the sprogs I've carried on and now it's just a habit to put the LJ on as soon as I step aboard. I have to say I don't notice it so am quite happy to carry on wearing it. Guests aboard, if over 18 get the option. Sprogs no choice, it's an LJ or they stay behind.

Friends of mine have a 26' open motor boat. They are emphatic that everyone who comes on board has to wear a lifejacket. That's absolutely fine by me - their boat, their rules and my buoyancy aid keeps me nice and warm.

Before they bought her, she ran river trips on the Dee in Kirkcudbright. Twelve or sixteen passengers at a time as I recall - we used to do the trip for visitors - but no lifejackets worn. It's made me reflect on how we often take precautions on "pleasure" boats which we wouldn't bother with on "commercial" ones, even though the risk is objectively the same.

How many people here would wear a lifejacket if taking a 16' GRP motor boat across the Helford river? Does it make a difference if it says "Helford Ferry" on the side?

RNLI do some superb safety briefings - for boats (& their owners) plus club talks, they publish some excellent general sea safety booklets & pamphlets & give free advice on guarded beaches.

Hmm. I've seen some of that "free advice" recently, on Porthmeor beach at St Ives. It was certainly free, but it wasn't so much "advice" as "orders barked aggressively through a loudhailer". Heaven help you there if you dare to use your own judgement rather than obey the multicoloured RNLI flags ...

 

[Juan Twothree]

Totally agree. Almost nobody drowns. It's almost unheard of. I'm pretty sure effort on other topics [1] would safe many more lives.

Are you absolutely sure about that?

Maybe I've been unlucky, but in my last 10 years of lifeboating I've been involved in searching for / recovering 8 bodies (although two were swimmers, so are irrelevant to this discussion).

(Of the others, in case you're interested, two got tipped out of a tender in a fast-flowing river (no L/Js), one fell into a creek as he was boarding his boat at night (no L/J), one was found in the water attached to his anchored yacht with a safety harness, and one was a kayaker, wearing a buoyancy aid. One final one wasn't wearing a L/J, but was badly decomposed, and we don't know the story with him).

My bit of water isn't particularly dangerous or exposed, in fact it is more estuary than sea (think E Coast).

I agree with the OP that the RNLI chap could have been more tactful, in fact maybe he should have kept quiet. But he was probably, like myself, just a well-meaning volunteer, rather than acting in any official capacity. I absolutely respect anyone's right whether or not to wear a L/J, and will willingly come & rescue you, in a non-judgemental way, whatever the circumstances. I never used to wear a L/J myself when fishing commercially, but, having had to zip people into body bags far too often, I choose to do so now.

A lifejacket may not save your life, but it WILL buy you more time to be rescued, which may make all the difference.

As others have pointed out previously, I (and my colleagues) choose to volunteer, so I don't expect my feelings or sensitivities to be taken into account if an incident does end in tears. Without wishing to sound heartless, once you've got over dealing with your first dead body, the rest are easier to cope with. However, on a practical note, I have spent countless hours searching for missing persons, and a search will continue all the while there is a chance of finding someone alive. Problem is, a body will often sink initially, and only surface again after a few days. If someone had been wearing a L/J then at least we will find them sooner (albeit dead), and can then turn round and go home again.

 

[maxi77]

I actually think it's the other way round. Some people have a gross misunderstanding of the water temperature this time of year, and how trivial the effect is for most people even in spring. I suspect the people who are less nervous have just been in an out of the water a bit more.

Why don't you try a new year's ever charity swim. You'd learn a lot.

Just out of interest, smoking is proveably dangerous. Is it ok for people to question the decision of smokers every time they light up? Or would it be annoying? What about a fried breakfast? Can you question people's decision to risk heart disease with a poor diet? Would that be annoying?

Water temperature itself is not the important thing in cold water shock, it is the unexpected shock and cooling effect. We have a 'Loonie Dook' not far from where we come from and my brother also took part in long distance sea swims when he was a bit younger. There the effect of cold is the simple one of lowering the bodies core temperature unless you can generate the heat to counteratc it as long distance cold water swimmers do. If you don't it is the slow collapse to hypothermia. Cold water shock happens when your immersion is unexpected and hits literally in seconds and can make you hepless in less than a minute.

Now I also have some experience of falling into the water as an ex laser sailor and even when the sea was at it's warmest laterly I always wore a dry suit because it allowed me to recover from capsizes faster.

Now a yachtie fully booted and spurred with his foulies on has less chance of cold water shock than some one in a dinghy in their run ashore kit.

When I had a boat on a swinging mooring we always wore a lifejacket in the dinghy, our choice, and many others in our club did so too.

I don't wear a lifejacket 24/7 at sea but almost always when I go out of the cockpit, and I am also hooked on then too. I far prefer to avoid going in in the first place. If you don't want to wear one fine, your choice. Even so I have no problem with people pointing out the risks to you just as they do about smoking, eating too much fat, healthy eating and road safety too.

 

[RichardS]

I'm always happy to hear advice from anyone who has prior knowledge on a particular subject. I can then decide whether my existing knowledge plus their advice leads me to a better understanding.

However, if the advice is given in an impolite or condescending manner, I am likely to give it less weight than otherwise.

I assume that most people feel like this and therefore hope that when I give advice I manage to follow my own principle!

Richard

Edit - giving unsolicited advice to someone who does not want it is, at best, impolite!

 

[Ubergeekian]

I never used to wear a L/J myself when fishing commercially, but, having had to zip people into body bags far too often, I choose to do so now.

While at St Ives I saw a lot of small fishing boats go out and return. I don't think I ever saw anyone in them - almost invariably just one person - wear a lifejacket. I'd be interested to know if any of those were lifeboat crew as well. I always wear a lifejacket when under way on my own, by the way.

 

[longjohnsilver]

RNLI do some superb safety briefings - for boats (& their owners) plus club talks, they publish some excellent general sea safety booklets & pamphlets & give free advice on guarded beaches. All this is excellent preventative work - and it is up to the recipients to decide which if any (or all) of the advice is particularly relevant to their water based activity.

All we have here is an individual interacting with someone in a boat in a manner that was intended to be helpful, but was perceived as patronising/ annoying. Sounds like a case of misunderstanding or perhaps inappropriate tone/ language rather than the end of our freedom to wear L/J's or PBA's as & when we see fit.

I think that sums it all up pretty succinctly. I guess there were 2 related issues that irritated me. The first one was that I was minding my own business, not breaking any rules and not being irresponsible in my handling of my tender. I therefore do not expect to be stopped and questioned by anyone.

Secondly when I was stopped I wasn't asked if I minded discussing why I wasn't wearing a LJ, it was his presumption that I hadn't made my own judgement and that I was basically just being lazy and thoughtless and he was going to lecture me regardless. He didn't seem to like the fact that I consciously choose not to wear a LJ. I didn't want to get into an argument with him; it was a Sunday lunch time, a beautiful sunny warm day and I didn't want it spoilt with an unnecessary and uninvited/unwanted discussion or lecture on LJs, I had better things to do with my time. That's not meant to sound pompous it's just that my leisure time is important to me and I don't want it soured by any unnecessary and uncalled for provocation.

As I've already said I don't expect others to follow my example of not wearing a LJ. I have my reasons which I believe are just as valid as those in favour of wearing a LJ. And I'd never dream of trying to persuade someone else not to wear a LJ, their circumstances/experiences will almost certain be very different to mine. Many people will think me a fool to make that choice, that's their perogative but it will not alter my opinion.

 

[colingr]

How many people here would wear a lifejacket if taking a 16' GRP motor boat across the Helford river? Does it make a difference if it says "Helford Ferry" on the side?

Or Folley launch. In fact my daughter raised that very point. After all you are just as likely to fall in returning from the Folley after a snifter or two that you are safely aboard your own boat.

So we had to wear our jackets

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

Are you absolutely sure about that?
Maybe I've been unlucky, but in my last 10 years of lifeboating I've been involved in searching for / recovering 8 bodies (although two were swimmers, so are irrelevant to this discussion).

Ok, well in the last 10 years there will be MAIB reports online about all of them. Can you identify them, so I can read about them and see what part LJs played for myself. Cos I was under the impression that less than 2 people a year die leisure sailing.

 

[chrisclin]

A few mentions that the OP was in a rib, a nice non-tippy boat. Some people wear lifejackets in the tender, others while at sea.
In my 40 odd years of sailing I have (perhaps fortunately) never seen anyone fall in from a cruising boat at sea or from a tender under way. However, I have seen 4 or 5 people fall in while transferring in or out of the tender. That's why I will always insist on people wearing lifejackets while going ashore.

 

[prv]

What that says to me is that I should wear one in my tender not that I shouldn't wear one on our yacht.

Yes, quite probably. That would be more consistent.

Pete

 

[pyrojames]

Much feeling both ways on this. IMHO there is a time and place for everything, and its down to me to decide whether I need the added insurance of my LJ.

But surely there is a wider issue behind this? The RNLI's stated puprose is the saving of life at sea. Does that give it a 'policing' role over other sea users. Past threads have raised the spectre of 'compulsory rescue' - how much should the RNLI's role be seen as preventitive, trying to stop accidents before they happen rather than being a marine AA, sorting out problemns as they arise.

I would certainly resent my competence as a yachtsman being questioned by some busybody telling me how to organise my boating.

On the other hand, it is would be the lifeboats rather grisly role to retrieve my body and return it to my family if the worst did happen. It is the same for the police having to deal with the fatal results of bad driving, and I do understand the frustration of those who have the highly unpleasant 'hands on' task of clearing up the mess whether on the roads or at sea when they then see yet another prat taking exactly the same risks.

But on the whole I really dont want to see RNLI become a sort of marine policing body telling us what we can and cannot do.

With the new government appearing to pass control of some things over to the volunteer/charity sector (eg BW), I wouldn't at all be surprised if siginifcant parts of the MCGA are disbanded and the RNLI picks up the bits. They clearly have excess resources and given their current activities it would be a logical (govt) progression.

Please note, I am not suggesting that this is a good thing. I would far prefer the RNLI to be a rescue organisation, rather than a policiing/rescue one such as the fire services.

 

[pyrojames]

Much feeling both ways on this. IMHO there is a time and place for everything, and its down to me to decide whether I need the added insurance of my LJ.

But surely there is a wider issue behind this? The RNLI's stated puprose is the saving of life at sea. Does that give it a 'policing' role over other sea users. Past threads have raised the spectre of 'compulsory rescue' - how much should the RNLI's role be seen as preventitive, trying to stop accidents before they happen rather than being a marine AA, sorting out problemns as they arise.

I would certainly resent my competence as a yachtsman being questioned by some busybody telling me how to organise my boating.

On the other hand, it is would be the lifeboats rather grisly role to retrieve my body and return it to my family if the worst did happen. It is the same for the police having to deal with the fatal results of bad driving, and I do understand the frustration of those who have the highly unpleasant 'hands on' task of clearing up the mess whether on the roads or at sea when they then see yet another prat taking exactly the same risks.

But on the whole I really dont want to see RNLI become a sort of marine policing body telling us what we can and cannot do.

With the new government appearing to pass control of some things over to the volunteer/charity sector (eg BW), I wouldn't at all be surprised if siginifcant parts of the MCGA are disbanded and the RNLI picks up the bits. They clearly have excess resources and given their current activities it would be a logical (govt) progression.

Please note, I am not suggesting that this is a good thing. I would far prefer the RNLI to be a rescue organisation, rather than a policiing/rescue one such as the fire services.