Questioned by RNLI re not wearing lifejacket.

[maxi77]

Would you wear a LJ in the Dartmouth water Taxi? A 2.8m RIB is not a tippy tender and LJS is not a doddery newbie, nor was this a rough water trip back from an exposed beach.

Sorry RNLI, I'm a member and have been for over 30 years but if one of your sanctimonious staff said that to me I would be thinking hard about cancelling my subscription.

I learnt to sail in the Dart, there is a little college up on the hill. On the water taxi there is by law a supply of suitable flotation devices. The OP did not really say what he was doing on hios rib but when my boat was on a mooring I did consider it common sense to wear a LJ in transit between land and boat.

Yes it is personal choice, but some peoples choices are plain stupid.

There is no law that tells us to look right and left before crossing the road but most of us seem to think there is sense in it. Equally wearing a lifejacket when there is risk is equally sensible, unless of course you are aiming to get into the Darwin awards.

 

[Lakesailor]

Robin,
I absolutely agree with you. Some sanctimonious forumite questioned me about the lack of LJ on my sailing video the other day. (perhaps it was in jest?)

In order to further this matter I have e-mailed the RNLI with the URL of this thread.
Let's see if the management are any better at Customer Liason.

 

[Clarky]

I think the RNLI person has done a good job because it has provoked yet another debate about their importance.
I nearly always wear mine at sea and am not bothered if somebody asks me about it when I dont .

 

[Lakesailor]

Yes it is personal choice, but some peoples choices are plain stupid.

I think you are calling LJS, Robin, Toad of Toadhall, Jac, Lady in Bed, Solent Boy,Old fat Git and me, stupid. ......and plain, as well.

 

[Robin]

I learnt to sail in the Dart, there is a little college up on the hill. On the water taxi there is by law a supply of suitable flotation devices. The OP did not really say what he was doing on hios rib but when my boat was on a mooring I did consider it common sense to wear a LJ in transit between land and boat.

Yes it is personal choice, but some peoples choices are plain stupid.

There is no law that tells us to look right and left before crossing the road but most of us seem to think there is sense in it. Equally wearing a lifejacket when there is risk is equally sensible, unless of course you are aiming to get into the Darwin awards.

I was at that little college up the hill before the start of the Tall Ships Race in 1962, and the cadets there ran (more like RAM) the liberty boats for the fleet, so if on a boat with them I might feel safer with a full survival suit on. BTW we whipped them good in both whalers and Fireflys not to mention in the waterpolo pool.

I have no objection to you making your own risk assessment and choosing to wear a LJ in the tender but I do reserve the right to make my own risk assessment without being accosted by some sanctimonious jobsworth and ticked off publicly having made my choice. I have managed to survive 48 years since that Tall Ships Race and many many thousands of miles in a variety of my own boats and never felt that my decisions over that time needed any additional input from a RNLI mouthpiece.

 

[alan_d]

...but I do reserve the right to make my own risk assessment without being accosted by some sanctimonious jobsworth and ticked off publicly having made my choice.

Zeal, all zeal.


(For those that do not recognise the reference, see Mr Midshipman Easy.)

 

[timbartlett]

I suspect that many of those who have posted here have not een the effect of coldwater shock.

Why do people who weren't there and didn't assess the boat, the conditions, so often assume that their risk assessment is more valid than those who were there and did?

If the OP chose not to wear a lifejacket, then (IMHO) that is all the information we need.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

The club I sail from (on the lower, tidal Thames), 99% of us wear LJs whenever afloat. The other end of the prom is the rowing club, 99%of whose members don't. The lifeboat station is 50 yards from them. Funny old life.

How many rowers have drowned?

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

I suspect that many of those who have posted here have not een the effect of coldwater shock.

I actually think it's the other way round. Some people have a gross misunderstanding of the water temperature this time of year, and how trivial the effect is for most people even in spring. I suspect the people who are less nervous have just been in an out of the water a bit more.

Why don't you try a new year's ever charity swim. You'd learn a lot.

Just out of interest, smoking is proveably dangerous. Is it ok for people to question the decision of smokers every time they light up? Or would it be annoying? What about a fried breakfast? Can you question people's decision to risk heart disease with a poor diet? Would that be annoying?

 

[Deleted member 36384]

Just an observation on two topics mentioned by posters: risk assessment and intervention.
The industries I work with (and other industries) have developed many methods around these subjects. The most difficult matter to overcome is the personal opinion. There are reams of documents on how to convince people to make a good risk assessment. More importantly there are even more reams of documents on how to intervene in a positive, instructive and effective manner.
It’s not easy overcoming personal opinion for the specialists that are trained to do this. The worst thing about good intentions imparted without skill is that it actually reinforces the prejudices of the receiver.

An Opinion
The big debate around this is always the statistics and life jacket statistics are not clear from what I can tell. I suspect that if the same amount of effort was put into engine reliability and basic pilotage, there would be a lot less call outs by the RNLI.
Lifejacket wearing is an easy target but the campaign misses the point and focus should be more on preventing the factors that cause the RNLI to be called out.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

I suspect that if the same amount of effort was put into engine reliability and basic pilotage, there would be a lot less call outs by the RNLI.

Totally agree. Almost nobody drowns. It's almost unheard of. I'm pretty sure effort on other topics [1] would safe many more lives.

[1] Gas safety? Road safety on the way to the boat? I bet there are others.

 

[Phoenix of Hamble]

The big debate around this is always the statistics and life jacket statistics are not clear from what I can tell. I suspect that if the same amount of effort was put into engine reliability and basic pilotage, there would be a lot less call outs by the RNLI

I agree... a good point.

Personally, I wear my life jacket pretty much as a matter of routine now.... but I am a firmly of the opinion that this is MY decision.... others disagree with that approach... and they are entirely within their right to do so.

I am nervous of where the RNLI are going.... IMHO they are slowly moving from a highly regarded, hugely trusted, enormously respected live saving organisation towards what feels more like a self appointed safety officer.... they need to be very careful that their understandably desire to encourage life jacket use isn't seen as interference rather than good advice, as they risk losing the long established good will of their 'customers'

 

[Ubergeekian]

I am nervous of where the RNLI are going.... IMHO they are slowly moving from a highly regarded, hugely trusted, enormously respected live saving organisation towards what feels more like a self appointed safety officer....

I agree. They need to remember that they are a voluntary organisation - which means they have absolutely no moral right to lecture the rest of us on what to do. If their members (by which I mean the people who do stuff, not the ones who donate money) don't approve of the reasons for which rescues are needed they can always spend their spare time doing something else.

 

[Alfie168]

If people who don't want to wear life jackets are happy to take that risk thats fine by me. If in the event of going over board they make the task of rescuers more difficult then I'm just a wee bit less tolerant of the laissez faire attitude, or at least I think there is a question to be asked, and that is...where does our responsibility to others start and finish when we go boating and it goes wrong.

I've had people give me funny looks for putting an LJ on.....now where the hell is that going...there does exist a kind of reverse snobbery from a certain type of boaty.

I do confess that even I got a bit riled at Rutland Water where you have to wear an LJ to go on a pontoon...but thems the rules in writing.....so you pays yer money etc.

Having been a dinghy sailor from the age of 5, I've always worn one anyway, but id agree that a stout well anchored life line is probably more important as a safety device. Stable door and all that.

Tim

 

[Phoenix of Hamble]

Interesting point Tim,

I think that this lifejacket machismo is a very key element in the whole debate.... there is definitely one segment of the sailing community that see the wearing of lifejackets as a sign of weakness. I'm not for one minute aiming that comment at any of the previous posts or posters.... I agree entirely that the good folks above are more than capable of making their own minds up, and usually with good common sense and justification as well.... its just that I feel that there is an element within our beloved comunity (sailing - not the forum!) that subtlely suggest that only the inexperienced, weak or timid wear them.... This, IME, is especially prevalent amongst raggies rather than mobers.... and is also especially prevalent amongst the racing community, accepting that most rating and handicap systems now require them to be worn... I think its something to do with being young and male (or wanting to be!).... a bit like young car drivers in some respects

 

[Ubergeekian]

If people who don't want to wear life jackets are happy to take that risk thats fine by me. If in the event of going over board they make the task of rescuers more difficult ...

The rescuers don't have to do it.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

I think that this lifejacket machismo is a very key element in the whole debate.... there is definitely one segment of the sailing community that see the wearing of lifejackets as a sign of weakness.

I've not come across that myself. Quite the opposite, IME the people who are 'anti-life jackets' (for want to of a better term) are far more aware of the advantages of clipping on and therefore taking far less risk than the evangelist 24/7 life jacket wearers.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

Having been a dinghy sailor from the age of 5, I've always worn one anyway,

I've also been sailing since I was a toddler, but I must admit when dinghy sailing, for mobility reasons, I always chose a buoyancy aid over a life jacket and still do.

 

[doug748]

Interesting point Tim,

I think that this lifejacket machismo is a very key element in the whole debate.... there is definitely one segment of the sailing community that see the wearing of lifejackets as a sign of weakness.

Yes I can see that.

I always imagine that most wearers are either:
Infrequent water users / a bit windy
Non swimmers
Showing off in front of the children
A tad too self important
Of an overly gloomy disposition

I wear one now and again, when I think the odds are unfairly stacked against me. What our friend at Dartmouth wants to do is dictate the odds.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

Yes I can see that.

I always imagine that most wearers are either:
Infrequent water users / a bit windy
Non swimmers
Showing off in front of the children
A tad too self important
Of an overly gloomy disposition

I wear one now and again, when I think the odds are unfairly stacked against me. What our friend at Dartmouth wants to do is dictate the odds.

I actually think that 24/7 wearers and non 24/7 wearers typically make their decision for perfectly good reasons and nobody else should judge them or even think about it. If someone's doing what's right for them then great.