tcm
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Re: South of France speed limits - In Practice
wot level of fines appear in the papers?
wot level of fines appear in the papers?
Questioned by Guardia Civil
- Thread starter Magnum
- Start date
mjf
Well-Known Member
Re: South of France speed limits
I think the speed limit issue ought to be discussed some more.
Sometimes even at 5 knots you can make a wake that can disturb other waterusers. So I reckon the no wake rule is better applied inside harbours / breakwaters. Then no-one gets upset. Certainly on my own boat and others I have helmed it is impossible to proceed at lower than 5 knots if both engines are just in gear and engine vertually at idle. So, you have to kick in and out of gear on alternate engines to maintain steerage but to proceed at a speed that ensures no wash.
I think Magnum if travelling at 7 knots would have caused a considerable wash which although disputably may be quite legal - the effect was not!
Of course you can argue that a RIB at 30knots can produce less wash than a 65ft MOBO at 4 knots...........Its all down to what is acceptable / good seamanship.
I think the speed limit issue ought to be discussed some more.
Sometimes even at 5 knots you can make a wake that can disturb other waterusers. So I reckon the no wake rule is better applied inside harbours / breakwaters. Then no-one gets upset. Certainly on my own boat and others I have helmed it is impossible to proceed at lower than 5 knots if both engines are just in gear and engine vertually at idle. So, you have to kick in and out of gear on alternate engines to maintain steerage but to proceed at a speed that ensures no wash.
I think Magnum if travelling at 7 knots would have caused a considerable wash which although disputably may be quite legal - the effect was not!
Of course you can argue that a RIB at 30knots can produce less wash than a 65ft MOBO at 4 knots...........Its all down to what is acceptable / good seamanship.
DAKA
Well-Known Member
Re: A riskier strategy but might be worth the bluff
[ QUOTE ]
My Furuno kit shows track, but not speed.
[/ QUOTE ]
You should be able to zoom in on the track and once zoomed in you should be able to space the dots for an indication of speed.
Lorry Tachographs are used in a similar way following accidents.
[ QUOTE ]
My Furuno kit shows track, but not speed.
[/ QUOTE ]
You should be able to zoom in on the track and once zoomed in you should be able to space the dots for an indication of speed.
Lorry Tachographs are used in a similar way following accidents.
EME
Well-Known Member
Fines
I can't remember recent levels of fines ( consequent implication being that they weren't particularly high) although I do recall PWC users were high in number of appearances and there were several 'bans' by mid-July.
Next time they print an article I'll keep it and post the content here. They usually do a major article once/twice a year ( presumably as a deterrent).
I can't remember recent levels of fines ( consequent implication being that they weren't particularly high) although I do recall PWC users were high in number of appearances and there were several 'bans' by mid-July.
Next time they print an article I'll keep it and post the content here. They usually do a major article once/twice a year ( presumably as a deterrent).
jfm
Well-Known Member
Re: French protocols
Agree all the comments by tcm and Learner re S of F speed limit manners. In addition:
1. most harbours post a 3kt limit, yes 3, from the harbour entrance inwards. This means in and out of gear, or rudder over and one engine. It would be bad form to barge thru at 6kts and try to excuse yourself on the grounds that your idle rpm on 2 engines produces 6kts.
2. If you do make a mistake and get caught, the treatment is much more bearable than Magnum is getting in Palma
Agree all the comments by tcm and Learner re S of F speed limit manners. In addition:
1. most harbours post a 3kt limit, yes 3, from the harbour entrance inwards. This means in and out of gear, or rudder over and one engine. It would be bad form to barge thru at 6kts and try to excuse yourself on the grounds that your idle rpm on 2 engines produces 6kts.
2. If you do make a mistake and get caught, the treatment is much more bearable than Magnum is getting in Palma
tcm
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Re: French protocols
Magnum's proposed fine must be based on the value of the boat. For lots of boats a £4k fine means they can keep the flippin thing.
Magnum's proposed fine must be based on the value of the boat. For lots of boats a £4k fine means they can keep the flippin thing.
Dave_Snelson
Well-Known Member
Re: French protocols
LOL /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
And I suspect you are right.
LOL /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
And I suspect you are right.
MedDreamer
Well-Known Member
Guilty until proved innocent?
Your solicitor implies that the burden of proof is on you surely this can't be so in the Human Rights obsessed, liberal minded, socialist dominated EU?
How was the "fine" imposed? Is it a Fixed Penalty or a Court Order, if the latter how can court proceedings take place without your knowledge.
I agree that the Guarda Civil are a law unto themselves and not to be messed with but surely the Courts are above that or am I being naive?
If justice is dished out this way in Spain, could you keep a look out for a berth suitable for an S34 when you move to the SoF.
I suppose, to balance things up, it would be fair to point out that there are many UK boaters in Spain who have not had such an experience. Have you any thoughts as to why they may have singled you out for such dracoinian treatment?
Whatever, I'm so sorry for you that this has happened and spoilt your enjoyment of Mallorca but I think if something similar happened to me I would want to move on as well.
Martyn
Your solicitor implies that the burden of proof is on you surely this can't be so in the Human Rights obsessed, liberal minded, socialist dominated EU?
How was the "fine" imposed? Is it a Fixed Penalty or a Court Order, if the latter how can court proceedings take place without your knowledge.
I agree that the Guarda Civil are a law unto themselves and not to be messed with but surely the Courts are above that or am I being naive?
If justice is dished out this way in Spain, could you keep a look out for a berth suitable for an S34 when you move to the SoF.
I suppose, to balance things up, it would be fair to point out that there are many UK boaters in Spain who have not had such an experience. Have you any thoughts as to why they may have singled you out for such dracoinian treatment?
Whatever, I'm so sorry for you that this has happened and spoilt your enjoyment of Mallorca but I think if something similar happened to me I would want to move on as well.
Martyn
fisherman
Well-Known Member
Re: Guilty until proved innocent?
Quote:
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I suppose, to balance things up, it would be fair to point out that there are many UK boaters in Spain who have not had such an experience.
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My only experience is selling fish to Spain, and you expect to get ripped off if not very careful.
However, my bro was in a marina round Barcelona, and discovered that more than half the Brits had been mugged outside the gates. Seems to be the whole attitude.
If pressure could be brought via local marine businesses I bet strings would be pulled.
Quote:
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I suppose, to balance things up, it would be fair to point out that there are many UK boaters in Spain who have not had such an experience.
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My only experience is selling fish to Spain, and you expect to get ripped off if not very careful.
However, my bro was in a marina round Barcelona, and discovered that more than half the Brits had been mugged outside the gates. Seems to be the whole attitude.
If pressure could be brought via local marine businesses I bet strings would be pulled.
smee
Well-Known Member
Re: The bottom line
Option 2 is most probably the best option (sadly).
Fighting legal battles in Mallorca when you are not Mallorquin will end in defeat, even if the evidence is stacked in the non-Mallorquins favour.
Some German friends who are business people and were 100% in the right, found this to their cost recently as there appears to be a hierachy of legal battle winners - in a battle foreigner versus Mallorquin, the Mallorquin will win. In a two foreigners battle the longest resident foreigner will win!
The Mallorquin court process is apparently not one to be entered into unless you happen to be Mallorquin!
Option 2 is most probably the best option (sadly).
Fighting legal battles in Mallorca when you are not Mallorquin will end in defeat, even if the evidence is stacked in the non-Mallorquins favour.
Some German friends who are business people and were 100% in the right, found this to their cost recently as there appears to be a hierachy of legal battle winners - in a battle foreigner versus Mallorquin, the Mallorquin will win. In a two foreigners battle the longest resident foreigner will win!
The Mallorquin court process is apparently not one to be entered into unless you happen to be Mallorquin!
duncan
Well-Known Member
Re: The bottom line
feel for you
tough not to but try to avoid it souring all your boating for the next year.
think you have come to the right conclusion sadely re your options but can't see moving to SOF as anything but an even bigger defeat.
feel for you
tough not to but try to avoid it souring all your boating for the next year.
think you have come to the right conclusion sadely re your options but can't see moving to SOF as anything but an even bigger defeat.
BlueSkyNick
Well-Known Member
Re: A riskier strategy but might be worth the bluff
Col, I've got the Nav6+ too (great bit of kit). It logs the boat's speed, and all other data, every 15 minutes but it's an instantaneous reading. So it only records whatever the speed is at the time, not an average for the 15minute period.
Not too bad if you are motoring at a constant speed, but sailing the speed can be continuously varying up an down.
Tome was working on something better - not heard about it for a year or so.
Col, I've got the Nav6+ too (great bit of kit). It logs the boat's speed, and all other data, every 15 minutes but it's an instantaneous reading. So it only records whatever the speed is at the time, not an average for the 15minute period.
Not too bad if you are motoring at a constant speed, but sailing the speed can be continuously varying up an down.
Tome was working on something better - not heard about it for a year or so.
mjf
Well-Known Member
Re: The bottom line
Just read Mark & Claire 'the pressure's off' on p65 of the current MB&Y.
Seems you spoke too soon?
Just read Mark & Claire 'the pressure's off' on p65 of the current MB&Y.
Seems you spoke too soon?
tcm
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Re: The bottom line
Ouch. Even I don't punch that far below the belt, sir.
Ouch. Even I don't punch that far below the belt, sir.
Magnum
RIP
Re: The bottom line
Yeah. It seems I did /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif
Yeah. It seems I did /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif
MapisM
Well-Known Member
7 knots
[ QUOTE ]
... was doing 7 knots ... and then my wash caused great danger (yeah right).
[/ QUOTE ]
By what I read, I'm sure you didn't deserve the treatment you got, and I don't want nor can argue against your very good reasons.
I must also add that I'm just making a wild guess, 'cause I have no direct experience on a P67.
But, I'd expect such boat, based on its displacement and hull shape, to produce some serious wash at 7kt.
Am I totally wrong?
[ QUOTE ]
... was doing 7 knots ... and then my wash caused great danger (yeah right).
[/ QUOTE ]
By what I read, I'm sure you didn't deserve the treatment you got, and I don't want nor can argue against your very good reasons.
I must also add that I'm just making a wild guess, 'cause I have no direct experience on a P67.
But, I'd expect such boat, based on its displacement and hull shape, to produce some serious wash at 7kt.
Am I totally wrong?
jimg
Well-Known Member
Re: 7 knots
I think you are right, the wash does not look much from a flybridge looking back, but I bought a small 21 foot sail boat last year for a bit of fun. It is on a fore and aft mooring on the River Dart where the speed limit is 6 knots. You cannot believe how much we get thrown about by the wash of passing motorboats who I guess are moving at "only" 5 or 6 knots.
I think you are right, the wash does not look much from a flybridge looking back, but I bought a small 21 foot sail boat last year for a bit of fun. It is on a fore and aft mooring on the River Dart where the speed limit is 6 knots. You cannot believe how much we get thrown about by the wash of passing motorboats who I guess are moving at "only" 5 or 6 knots.
Ships_Cat
Well-Known Member
Re: 7 knots
While I have a great deal of sympathy with Magnum, I do not think you are "entirely wrong" if the boat was doing 7 knots and was reasonably close to the guardia's boat (within 75-50m say - here in NZ it is illegal to operate at more than 5 knots within 50m of any other vessel or create a wash nuisance no matter where, even at sea).
Sea trialling large MoBo's in one place (not here in NZ) we had to keep speeds well down in one area as even though over half a mile away, wash was causing a marine farm problems (the wash did not look significant from the wheelhouse) and those were with commercial vessels especially designed to operate with low wake in harbours.
I, luckily, cannot claim much experience of European "law" enforcers apart from asking them the way, but taking on board what others have said and given that it seems there would be little to be lost except face, I think I would pay the guardia's a visit and be very apologetic, say how one has asked for views from other boat users on the internet, have just moved to a bigger boat with more wash and higher from water so not noticed, have learnt my lesson, I would enjoy having you on board and maybe you can explain your concerns and how I can correct them over coffee (or whatever they decide they would like), and promise to be an excellent example to all others afterwards. Maybe difficult to get across in the local language if not fluent (maybe hire a respected local to translate and speak for you?).
Maybe get let off, maybe not.
John
While I have a great deal of sympathy with Magnum, I do not think you are "entirely wrong" if the boat was doing 7 knots and was reasonably close to the guardia's boat (within 75-50m say - here in NZ it is illegal to operate at more than 5 knots within 50m of any other vessel or create a wash nuisance no matter where, even at sea).
Sea trialling large MoBo's in one place (not here in NZ) we had to keep speeds well down in one area as even though over half a mile away, wash was causing a marine farm problems (the wash did not look significant from the wheelhouse) and those were with commercial vessels especially designed to operate with low wake in harbours.
I, luckily, cannot claim much experience of European "law" enforcers apart from asking them the way, but taking on board what others have said and given that it seems there would be little to be lost except face, I think I would pay the guardia's a visit and be very apologetic, say how one has asked for views from other boat users on the internet, have just moved to a bigger boat with more wash and higher from water so not noticed, have learnt my lesson, I would enjoy having you on board and maybe you can explain your concerns and how I can correct them over coffee (or whatever they decide they would like), and promise to be an excellent example to all others afterwards. Maybe difficult to get across in the local language if not fluent (maybe hire a respected local to translate and speak for you?).
Maybe get let off, maybe not.
John
BrendanS
Well-Known Member
Re: 7 knots
Difficult to know though with cultural differences, how much of this would be seen as trying to get away with 'crime' or seen as positive gesture. I suspect local advice is required.
Peeps in uniform can either be very agreeable to being fawned to, or take it entirely the wrong way.
Difficult to know though with cultural differences, how much of this would be seen as trying to get away with 'crime' or seen as positive gesture. I suspect local advice is required.
Peeps in uniform can either be very agreeable to being fawned to, or take it entirely the wrong way.
Ships_Cat
Well-Known Member
Re: 7 knots
Yes I agree Brendan. Local advice (from the underworld /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif) would be wortwhile, but in the end it seems there is nothing to lose except face.
If well heeled enuff it might be worth the fun, as has been suggested, to roll the notes off a great wad in front off them. But there again, that may get one detained until they work out who you stole the dirty money off /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif.
Feel for Magnum though - burocrassy gone mad with no sense of realism.
John
Yes I agree Brendan. Local advice (from the underworld /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif) would be wortwhile, but in the end it seems there is nothing to lose except face.
If well heeled enuff it might be worth the fun, as has been suggested, to roll the notes off a great wad in front off them. But there again, that may get one detained until they work out who you stole the dirty money off /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif.
Feel for Magnum though - burocrassy gone mad with no sense of realism.
John