Question about engine bay fire extinguishers

[vas]

Fwiw, my old lady didn't have any flaps.
Just two openings on each side, the fwd one sucking air in and the aft one blowing air out, both smallish - about 10cm diameter.
They were unnecessary while cruising though, since natural ventilation courtesy of engines aspiration was enough.
I just used to run them for a while upon arrival, to keep the e/r from getting too hot.
I suppose that if the fire extinguishers should have released the powder, those openings would have made no meaningful difference on its effectiveness. But I'm glad I never had to check that!

so P. you actually had mechanical means to suck/blow air from the e/r.

Hm, I've got nothing, and not keen on getting 10 blowers fitted or 4 flaps fitted either (assuming I can get a flap to close the vent outs on each side of the e/r)

wonder what others have

V.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Now, IIRC in Deleted User e/r there is a (separate) fire/smoke detection system.

Yes there are separate fire and smoke control systems, both manufactured by Bentel. This is the fire control system

The smoke control system has actually alarmed on a couple of occasions, once when a condenser in the a/c unit burnt out and once when a battery failed so it does seem to work

 

[MapisM]

the boat was manufactured in 2006 and I guess at the time there was no alternative to a powder type fire extinguishing system.
...
With regard to the safety pin, I had a discussion with a boatyard in Sardinia who serviced the boat in 2014/15 about whether the pin should be left in or out. Their opinion was that, in order for the remote pull to work, the safety pin should be left out. For obvious reasons we didnt want to test this reasoning!

M, it is indeed possible that a dozen of years ago the FM-200 (aka HFC-227) was not available yet - can't tell for sure.
But fwiw, the FE-36 (aka HFC-236fa) surely was - in fact, it's what was originally fitted in my 2004 vintage DP.
Interestingly, when I replaced the original FE-36 cylinder, I was strongly recommended by a specialist to fit FM-200 instead, but don't ask me why.

Ref. the pin, yeah, of course it MUST be left out, otherwise the valve release (either manually or automatically) is prevented.
When I said in a previous posts that some folks just leave it in inadvertently, I didn't mean it's the right thing to do!

 

[MapisM]

so P. you actually had mechanical means to suck/blow air from the e/r.

Yup, 4 small blowers, two each side. Pretty cheap Osculati stuff really, but as I said running them while cruising was totally unnecessary.
Btw, the DP has a much more sophisticated system, with huge fans and shutting flaps, thermostatically controlled at different temperatures depending on whether the engines are running or not, but even if I don't have enough experience yet to tell how necessary they are, so far they never started automatically while the engines are running - not even at low rpm, when the engines-driven ventilation is less.
Frankly speaking, for your boat, I wouldn't bother too much. She worked nicely as she was built for quite a long time, I reckon - and if it ain't broke....

 

[MapisM]

Yes there are separate fire and smoke control systems, both manufactured by Bentel. This is the fire control system

Yup, I had that box in mind - in fact, I half remember that you asked me to check something on it in one occasion.
What I can't tell - also from this last pic - is whether it has also some kind of mechanical actuator that can pull the cable attached to the cylinder valve, hence releasing the powder in case of actual fire.
I would think it doesn't, and if so it means that it's up to you to activate the fire extinguisher manually (after closing manually also the e/r flaps and shutting the fuel valves, I suppose).
I've seen also boats built by other yards with such setup, which does make sense in some ways, because automatic release has its cons, as has been pointed out...

 

[Portofino]

Thx for posting the control panel Mike .
How is the canister triggered ? ( assuming the pins out ) once an alarm goes off ?

@ vas - just make sure the engines are off if you have gas .perhsps go for another canister Kg size up to allow for escape through the open vents ,

If the engines running it
1- sucks in and digests the gas through the exhaust v quickly.
2- sucks air read that as more 0 2 from the open vents to fan the flames or reignite it .

Back ground reading here
https://www.passagemaker.com/lifestyle/fire-suppression-systems

@ MapishM I think I have the same as you ?
Running
Emergency stop knobs - push
Flaps pull
Cylinder pull
Fuel cocks pull

Cylinder has a bulb 79 decree and is mounted high centrally for auto if presume boat off and unattended- electrical fire ?

What I have not got is an alarm .
So plan to try the double photoelectric smoke detector idea that Scubadoo suggests.
Or EBay some orther remote monitor ?

Never been on a boat running with a ER fire
Direction of travel of air is in particularly with 25 L sucking at 1850 rpm ,so guessing any smoke will be consumed by the engines too ?
Ie will not see it whisping or bellowing out at 30 knots ?

I need to know there’s a fire before the bulb gets to 79 degrees to shut down and close the flaps etc before release of gas .

Hmm may look a bit deeper and fit somthing on the helm .

Just one more Q aimed at FB guys - can you shut down from upstairs while the keys are in and on downstairs.
Scuse my ignorance on this guys .
And where are the pull toggles at one station or doubled up ? If not fully auto .

 

[MapisM]

@ MapishM I think I have the same as you ?

Not exactly, but similar.
I believe that RINA wasn't strict on which of the many possible ways to skin this cat the builders should adopt.

I don't have any emergency stops, neither on the p/house nor in f/b. Just normal stop buttons (on the f/b) or keys (In the p/house), whose only function is to turn the engines off - as you would do to, ...ermm, turn off the engines.
But in Ferrettis for instance, on top of the very same arrangement, there's also a red emergency stop button which (I believe - not 100% positive, though) aside from shutting the engines down, closes an electrical valve along the fuel line, and possibly also the e/r vent flaps.
Anyway, my "sequence" in the event of an e/r fire while running should be as follows:
After turning the engines off (from either helm station - it doesn't matter which), I should go to the cockpit, where three pull handles are located in one of the superstructure "cheeks", and pull the one for closing the vent flaps, then the one for closing the fuel valves, and eventually the one for releasing the extinguisher.
All this, unless the e/r temp already reached 93 deg in the meantime (which for all intent and purposes means an already critical situation), in which case the bulb opens the cylinder valve automatically.
Of course, that might be less effective if the e/r vents aren't closed yet, but still better than nothing, I guess.

Btw, I'm writing this with the DP in mind - the Azzurro was different, and generally simpler.
The two powder extinguishers above the engines (see pic in my post #39) were ONLY automatic, and the boat had no flaps at all on the e/r vents. Otoh, she had the somewhat more sophisticated solution of electrovalves on the fuel lines (mind, with its pros and cons, again), which opened/closed whenever the respective engine was turned on/off.
In practice, this meant that there was nothing to do in the event of a fire while cruising, aside from turning the engines off.

 

[Portofino]

Not exactly, but similar.
I believe that RINA wasn't strict on which of the many possible ways to skin this cat the builders should adopt.

I don't have any emergency stops, neither on the p/house nor in f/b. Just normal stop buttons (on the f/b) or keys (In the p/house), whose only function is to turn the engines off - as you would do to, ...ermm, turn off the engines.
.

https://imgur.com/a/j3gNv

Yes it seems a bit daft if that’s all those red push knobs do positioned 3 cm above a key you can twist to the left to just “ ermm turn the engines off “
I wonder if they isolate the battery’s as well as turn off the engines ? They glow at night and the legend just says “ off “
Hand book is in IT .
Or it was an old RINA requirement that pre dates keys and the builder to comply with a engine shut down push knob has just stuck them in a handy spot 3 cm above the ignition keys to tick that particular box on the compliance list at the time ?

Just one more thought - wondering where is Mikes panel located ?
Presume not in the ER or other fire hazard-y place ? They say electrical fires are common on boats heat generated from resistance with corroded contacts , inverters getting caned ,batts getting stuffed rapidly with modern chargers etc etc

 

[Ian h]

one of the guys as work has purchased this for his camper van .
Says its also suitable for boats.
Anyone got system fitted? seems simple
https://www.firetoolsales.co.uk/col...d-fire-suppression-system?variant=40060056906

 

[petem]

M, it is indeed possible that a dozen of years ago the FM-200 (aka HFC-227) was not available yet - can't tell for sure.
But fwiw, the FE-36 (aka HFC-236fa) surely was - in fact, it's what was originally fitted in my 2004 vintage DP.
Interestingly, when I replaced the original FE-36 cylinder, I was strongly recommended by a specialist to fit FM-200 instead, but don't ask me why.

Ref. the pin, yeah, of course it MUST be left out, otherwise the valve release (either manually or automatically) is prevented.
When I said in a previous posts that some folks just leave it in inadvertently, I didn't mean it's the right thing to do!

I had a look at my fire extinguishers when I was on board at the weekend. My boat was fitted with FM-200 kit in 2002 when it was built, so it is rather odd that Mike's later boat had dry powder. I couldn't make out the size of the cylinder but it doesn't look very big! Anyhow, I believe the main venting to the engine bay is via the blowers which are shut down in the event of a fire as well (as shutting down the engines).

Mike, regarding pins, is your photo showing the extinguisher before you removed the pin?

P, for your info and without wishing to be pedantic, my engine bay fire extinguisher will still fire automatically with the pin still in. The pin only prevents the manual activation from breaking the seal.

 

[MapisM]

I believe the main venting to the engine bay is via the blowers which are shut down in the event of a fire as well (as shutting down the engines).

...

P, for your info and without wishing to be pedantic, my engine bay fire extinguisher will still fire automatically with the pin still in.
The pin only prevents the manual activation from breaking the seal.

Do you mean that the e/r vents/blowers are only open/running with the engines on?
That's an unusual configuration, because you might wish to keep the e/r aerated for a while after a longish trip, upon return to your berth, also after turning the beasts off.

Ref. the way the pin works, I take your word for it of course, but what's the brand/type of cylinder?
Just curious, because in each and every cylinder I've seen (and I've seen several), the pin locks the valve mechanically when inserted, and no automatic actuator would stand a chance to release the gas without pulling it first.

 

[petem]

Do you mean that the e/r vents/blowers are only open/running with the engines on?
That's an unusual configuration, because you might wish to keep the e/r aerated for a while after a longish trip, upon return to your berth, also after turning the beasts off.

I've not seen any daylight from the e/r so I believe the blower ducting is connected to the vents. If the blowers aren't running then there is no venting. Like most people we have a bit of a pootle back to our berth so temps never seem to be that high once the beasts have been put back to sleep! I can of course run the blowers manually from the dash if for example the engines are still hot when we stop.

Ref. the way the pin works, I take your word for it of course, but what's the brand/type of cylinder?
Just curious, because in each and every cylinder I've seen (and I've seen several), the pin locks the valve mechanically when inserted, and no automatic actuator would stand a chance to release the gas without pulling it first.

P, they are Sea Fire. The following picture shows the way they work...

I believe the plastic tube in the middle is the mechanism for releasing the gas automatically. Presumably it melts or something like that? The manual actuation (top right with locking pin in place) breaks the plastic tube.

The electrical cable goes to the Seafire box which in turn shuts down the engines, switches off the blowers and sounds the alarm on the dash (where there is an override switch that allows the engines, blowers etc to be restarted).

I could of course be wrong on both counts?

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

I had a look at my fire extinguishers when I was on board at the weekend. My boat was fitted with FM-200 kit in 2002 when it was built, so it is rather odd that Mike's later boat had dry powder.

I'm not sure that FM200 was around in 2002. More likely a previous owner fitted the system after the time the boat caught fire and burned to the waterline

 

[petem]

I've not seen any daylight from the e/r so I believe the blower ducting is connected to the vents. If the blowers aren't running then there is no venting. Like most people we have a bit of a pootle back to our berth so temps never seem to be that high once the beasts have been put back to sleep! I can of course run the blowers manually from the dash if for example the engines are still hot when we stop.



P, they are Sea Fire. The following picture shows the way they work...

I believe the plastic tube in the middle is the mechanism for releasing the gas automatically. Presumably it melts or something like that? The manual actuation (top right with locking pin in place) breaks the plastic tube.

The electrical cable goes to the Seafire box which in turn shuts down the engines, switches off the blowers and sounds the alarm on the dash (where there is an override switch that allows the engines, blowers etc to be restarted).

I could of course be wrong on both counts?

I blimmin told you lot that the things could still fire even with the pin in!