Qualified Or Not, What Would You Do?

[Guest]

Jeremy Clarkson et al

BBC did a show on the old wives tales about cars .... and they proved that a Beetle does not float without serious modifications.QED

 

[Guest]

I gave up !

I kept goading him to divulge facts ... but only got partial answer ...

I have many questions / thoughts based on the scanty information available from FS and to be honest find parts difficult to comprehend. Now I live in ignorance and only visit this thread occasionally to see if anything has really changed !!

 

[firstspirit]

Re: The facts please

JimR Thank you for your posting,

I confirm NO relation whatsover to the vessel you have mentioned in your posting and I respect your polite approach on this matter.

Firstspirit has no professional training in seeking to canvass raw opinion in the questions raised. I can only apologise if you or other posters find these posts or threads patronising. boring etc. I am sorry. As for the multiposting I confess to being a complete novice on computers too and the day that I posted this situation I could not see my posting listed, so I just kept trying till I did!!!

In bringing this situation to the YBW. COM site, Firstspirit is trying, not only to discover the difficult questions that may be placed in an open media situation, but intends to share a common interest with other boat users. I am sure than some readers of these posts will be better informed. And if you should happen to fall over in the middle of the night? I am also sure that marina operators and marine insurance consultants will be better informed too!

As for the naming and shaming, Firstspirit is hoping, perhaps against hope, that the marina operator concerned wil see sense and put right was is wrong. That, we will have to just wait and see.

To protect the innocent, is why personal details are not forthcoming but it may not always be that way.

I am however interested in your view that you or other posters on this forum may consider helping in some way but for the lack of details. Please tell me what else you need to know and I will try to accomodate. If you would prefer a Private message, please say so.

As for asking a straight question, I thought I did. What would you do? But as you can see, the answer is never as simple as the question is. It is because there are always going to be certain circumstances that have to be built in to the answer.

Regards,

Firstspirit.

 

[firstspirit]

Re: The facts please

Thank you Chris Robb for your posting,

There are but few details not already disclosed about this incident on this and other forums. I have tried to explain everything to those who are genuinely interested. I do understand and accept anyone who is not.

In this respect I would ask that you seek all the details from the other post, or send a private message to me if you can not find what you are looking for.

Regards,

Firstspirit.

 

[firstspirit]

Re: The facts please

Thank you david e for your posting.

Your understanding of the sensitivity in this situation is much appreciated as now we are getting to the crunch so to speak.

But if my question is not held up as credible within the boating world, (Firstspirit feels on trial already!) why on earth would it be something of interest to the general public?

The RYA were approached back in June for legal advice in this matter, through our Marina Bertholders Association affiliation rights. Only last week as a result of an aggressive e-mail did we get our first response that someone would be down to 'be very interested in our case'. We have yet to see anyone arrive.......but we live in hope.

It would seem that we are reaching the point of no return and to the public this skipper will go, but that will be a last resort to protect the innocent you understand.

Regards,

Firstspirit

 

[firstspirit]

Re: I gave up !

Nigel Luther,

Never Give Up, please forward a private message and ask away.

Regards,

Firstspirit.

 

[firstspirit]

Re: Some simple advice...

Sinbad1, Thank you for your posting,

Why do people take so long in holding on to their best advice yet? What you have said seems to make good sense. The skipper is insured for this vessel fully comp.

But do you think the marina should be going down the lines of issuing official eviction notices for a skipper, first mate, crew and vessel which actually did nothing wrong except stop floating and fall over in their marina?


Regards,

Firstspirit.

P.S. By the way, did I tell you the first mate was eight months pregnant at the time of this incident? Can you imagine the stress, anxiety, etc?

 

[david_e]

Re: the first mate

hopefull you have some good news on this subject that you can pass on? was it a girl or a boy and are they both well?)

 

[Guest]

Firstspirit, having read all your posts and smoke screens you are obviously feeling very agrieved/ emotional, have reached an impasse with the marina. I can only suggest that you have two course of action....either. take what you can and cut your losses and learn for it or engage a good lawyer, dig deep financialy because it will cost, and take their advice.

Pete

 

[chippie]

Re: Some simple advice...

You say the skipper is insured 'fully comp', by this do you mean that the boat is insured? If so , notification of the incident to your insurance company with a request from the owner for an assessment of the vessel should see the wheels put into motion so speak. This would put you on the right track re the vessel.
I sympathise with the stress the pregnant first mate must have suffered, but this cant be undone and time has moved on .I hope it was only stress and nothing worse.(I dont mean to diminish that).
I deduce that the marina has issued notice for the vessel to move from where it is. Your response to this should be solely based on the marina's legal position to do this. It is either in their terms of use or it isnt.
My apologies for my less than serious response when you first posted.I thought it was a wind up.
It might be a good idea now that some time has passed and emotions may have settled a bit, to write down a list of specific questions that this forum might be able to answer(if there are any left).This can help to clarify a path of action through confused issues. WHAT DO YOU WANT?
A new posting under the same or similar heading might make it quicker to load if you have further things to say.

Cheers

 

[Guest]

Re: The facts please

Ok sorry for the tone of my post, you seem to be under a lot of stress.

I think you need profesional legal advice in this matter, and for that I am not qualified.

I have been involved in a fairly similar situation in the Azores. Boat was hauled by yard. All work involved (in hauling out) was conducted by yard.

Due to insufficiant chocking by yard, boat fell on slipway, caving in side, and causing substantial damage.

Boat was slightly longer / heavier than yours.

Entire process was captured on video!

Despite video evidence, yard refused to accept responsability. If the matter had be taken to court, yard would almost certainly have been found liable. However, this would have put the boat in an untenable position. Repair work in the yard would have been very difficult to carry out. No alternative facilities in area. No means of transport if there were. Boat may have been stuck there for years.

In view of this the skipper ( not me thank god), decided to bite the bullet and not take the matter further, in the interests of the boat. I imagine the owner (or his insurers) bore the brunt of the cost.

Not a helpful tale really, but you seem to be in a better position. You can contact a legal adviser, surveyor and diver immediately. They can respectivly advise as to liability, record any damage incured, and advise if safe to transport boat.

From your posts, it seems as if the marina has behaved unforgivably, whoever ultimatly turns out to have been at fault. I think that your position there will be untenable whatever the conclusion.

If you are the owner, I imagine you apreciate this already, if not, then the owner when advised of the facts of the case, will have to accept the move, albeit reluctantly.

If you HAVE to stay in the marina, bite the bullet, make peace and get the thing fixed. Bad for the pride and pocket, but at least quick.

It seems to be a bugger of a situation, but not altogether uncommon for people to attempt to shift blame, especially when money /jobs are concerned.

The short answer to you question "what would you do"? I would contact a legal advisor today. I would then act on his advice which I imagine would involve a surveyor / diver in the first instance.

It may cost initially, but if you are not at fault you'll recover it. If you are, at least you'll know.

It will also vastly reduce your stress levels, which I imagine are already quite high at 8 1/2 months.

Good luck
Jim

 

[JeremyF]

Re: Some simple advice...

Good advice Chippie. Ive not contributed to the thread before, as it has been so cryptic. Originally I thought it was like YM's monthly 'what would you do?' column. Now it has turned deadly earnest.

First Spirit - if you have specific questions, ask them directly on a new thread. But, as Peter Gough states, this is only a forum of yotties, and not lawyers. It soulds as if this should be taken to your lawyer, rather than the opinions sought of this forum (unless we have a lawyer here that would welcome the challenge/fees)

Jeremy Flynn
Dawn Chorus

 

[jimi]

Re: Jeremy Clarkson et al

My suspicion is that they tried the beetle the road way up, you need to use it upside down. You just need to look at it to see that the right way for the road is the wrong way for l'eau .. and vice versa.

Jim

 

[Guest]

A question for Firstspirit

Were/are you living aboard? By which I mean is/was the boat your main place of residence?

 

[NigeCh]

Let\'s re-assemble all of the published facts

Firstspirit (FS) enters marina. FS books into the Marina and gives all the necessary boat details to the Marina Operator and is assigned a berth. Suddenly during the night all the water disappears in an instant and FS falls over.

1) A contract has been entered into between the Marina Operator and FS's owner;

2) The Contract, with FS's details having been logged with the Marina Operator, the Marina Operator allocates FS a suitable berth;

3) No details of why the water suddenly gushed out are given;

4) No details of the clauses of the Contract between FS and the Marina Operator are given; It is probable that FS neither asked for nor received any written Contract for berthing in the Marina. It is also probable that the Marina Operator has a formal Letting Agreement and that Letting Agreement is fixed somewhere on say a wall in the Marina Operators Office. It is also probable that that Letting Agreement states that all users of the Marina should read the Letting Agreement and be aware of its clauses and that whatever happens inside the Marina is the responsibility of the Yacht Owner and that the Yacht Owner has a duty to read the Letting Agreement.

5) It is probable that the Marina Operator did not inform the Yacht Owner of where the clauses in the Letting Agreement might be read, but worked on the basis that the Letting Agreement had a clause in it saying that it was the Duty of the Yacht Owner to read the Agreement before he paid for the allocated berth.

6) Given all of FS's posts and answers, it seems probable that FS is in the middle of some action and is not happy with the way that either the proceedings or litigation are taking ... or it could be that he is being advised at £££'s cost that he has no case.

I'm not a legal expert. I've been involved in arbitration for over 30 years. I can't give an opinion on this matter as so many facts appear to be missing. What FS ought to do is to reveal all of the necessary facts as a listed summary (without naming names or anything else that may prejuduce his case) so that informed opinion may be given.

It stikes me that without full information that FS is onto a loser. Litigation is only won by he who has the deepest pocket or the best insurer. What we haven't heard is whether FS was insured, and if he was insured, then why isn't his insurer fighting the case for him (assuming I've read all the posts correctly) ???? *** (See below)

FS, please can you provide more information without compromising yourself,



*** Note - Insurance details are sort of given and what's given, given the Insurance Consultant's reply doesn't, IMO, hold out for any form of positive settlement to the Owner. So additionally, if opinion is to be given then we need to be able to read the necessary clauses from FS's insurance policy in force at the time of the incident as well.






<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by NigeCh on 05/09/2002 01:45 (server time).</FONT></P>

 

[firstspirit]

Re: Let\'s re-assemble all of the published facts

Dear NigeCh (and anyone who still has the will to be interestred)

Increasingly firstspirit is acting upon advice and opinion expressed by users of this and other forums. It is clear that some feel not informed and in this respect I would be grateful for you to send me a PM asking your question directly. I will do my best to answer all reasonable questions in this regard.

Under the present circumstances firstspirit is finding it almost impossible to reply to individual postings and also wishes to lessen the obvious annoyance, multi-postings have already created, to other forum users. My apologise for this are already logged with Kim Hollamby on this one as I believe this was a technical problem in receiving and being able to see my original postings.

Your help and support is appreciated. Thank you.

Regards,

Firstspirit.