Qualified Or Not, What Would You Do?

[firstspirit]

Re: Alternative thought

Dear Kdf, Thanks for joining in.

30 Euros is not a lot of dosh particularly when you can't be sure that no damage has occurred to the underside of your vessel. Next time you haul out, I hope you won't have any surprises.

Depending on the configuration of your undersides of course, you may not have to worry about damage...but then again.

Main thing is glad nobody hurt, but who did you hold responsible, and were you just glad to 'get away' with a 'lucky escape' or in hindsight do you wish you behaved differently. I am not trying to worry you, but how do you now the underside has not landed 'heavy' on something on the sea floor? Let's put it another way, if it happened again, what would you do?

Regards,

Firstspirit.

 

[firstspirit]

Re: In that case, the owner\'s responsible.

Dear AndrewB,

When common sense is not reflected in our laws we have a right to be angry. This incident you have described would make me very angry. It is not just.

However, the vessel and crew in the scenario I have depicted to you was specifically welcomed into the marina, in writing and further informed that there would be no problem in berthing this vessel at the marina.

What would you believe NO PROBLEM means. And what about the basic statutory right of 'Duty of Care'.

Operators catch on fast to loop holes and inserting small print into contracts. In this instance there have already been changes made to the standard contracts issued at the marina.

Regards,

Firstspirit.

 

[firstspirit]

Re: In that case, the owner\'s responsible.

AndrewB

Something I forgot to mention. The marina operator accepts that they 'guessed' wrong about the amount of water under the vessel, which was explained away because of the silting building up over the many years that the marina used to be a commercial dock.

The skipper, crew and vessel were invited into the marina, accepted lock, stock and barrel. All details (LOA DRAFT BEAM) were filed at the marinas office as standard procedure. Can it really be the fault of the skipper, especially as no notice was given of the planned, expected, low water levels on that night?

NO CHANCE, The Skipper is a Skipper, not a Marina Operator.

Regards,


Firstspirit

 

[halcyon]

Did you read the report in YM re the gate failure at Peel ? IoM, reports from the people on board were identical.

What was the outcome there ?.


Brian

wish I had time to dream up a handle

 

[jimi]

Re: In that case, the owner\'s responsible.

From what I can gather this was caused purely by tidal fall in inadequate depth in a pontoon berth in a tidal marina.

Given this scenario
My guess is that the two ultimate counter arguments are:
1)The marina operators are guilty of negligence and as such are fully liable for any damage caused.
versus
2)The skipper is ultimately responsible for the safety of the vessel and as such should be aware of the depth moored in and tidal rise & fall.

If I were a member of a jury on this I would tend to support argument 2.

Jim

 

[kdf]

Re: Alternative thought

Just after I left Concarneau I went to Glenan (where the water is clear). and took a swim to check out the keel - the bottom was mud to there was no damage to the lead.

To me this is one of the many hazzards with sailing and is something I have to accept. If I ding the keel on a rock and the chart clearly states I should have had enough water over it do I blame Imray or Navicarte or the Admiralty. No, I accpept it, repair the damage, put the issue down to experience and move on.

 

[imptish]

Sorry, but I'm still confused. My understanding from the info given is:

1. Your boat was on its permanent mooring. (Marina Pontoon).
2. There was sufficient water under your boat in normal circumstances to remain afloat. (verified by yourself).
3. In this incident the water level dropped to below that of normal operation at a fast rate.
4. Your boat settled partially into the mud / silt on the bottom without you realising.
5. Once the water had "gone" your boat fell onto its side.

IMHO from piecing together events in various postings, the marina operator is at fault for allowing the water level to drop below their advertised minimum.

Once all your crew are safely off the boat (if the boat fell away from the pontoon this might not be easy), assess the damage to the boat and any possible damage that may occur on refloating. Then report to the marina operator to find out what they have done to cause the mess.

Once armed with all the facts, contact your insurers as soon as possible and let them do all the shouting and arguing with the marina operators.

Also I would insist on a haul out as soon as the boat has refloated.

 

[jimi]

Re: In that case, the owner\'s responsible.

Sorry I'm also a bit confused.

Was there action taken by the marina operators which caused the water levels to fall below normal tidal levels?

If so then it would appear on the (scanty) facts given that there is negligence involved & as such they are prima facie liable unless such liability is specifically excluded in the contract between yourself & the operator.

Jim

 

[RupertW]

I'd be claiming off my own insurance for the damage done but expect (and push) them to claim off the marina for negligence, thus keeping my clean no-claims record. The negligence in my case would have been based on the fact that the marina knew my depth (recorded on the bogstandard berth booking form), and moved my boat to a berth which did not have that depth at low tide.

If you berthed your own boat then your case is a bit more tricky because you might be expected to check the tide-tables and echo sounder before going to sleep - not that many people actually would.

 

[Mirelle]

I will continue to avoid marinas!

I have been into one once this year, but it is in a tideway.

 

[jimi]

Re: I will continue to avoid marinas!

Do'nt blame you .. it was a bloody awful car, perhaps one of the worst offerings from the BMC .. perhaps only rivalled by the original Vauxhall Viva @:-{)#

Jim

 

[Twister_Ken]

Better than the Allegro and Princess. nm

§

 

[Twister_Ken]

Re: Alternative thought

Kdf,

This case looks very different from modifying the keel on a charted or uncharted rock.

The guy parked in a marina where he was reassured by the operator there was enough h2o. For one reason or another a marina employee opened a lock sluice and depth disappeared. No chart, or careful navigation would have prevented this.

He seems blameless and if damage has been caused he is (should be) entitled to complete recompense. Plus, the operator would be well advised to make some goodwill gesture, like free berthing for next season, or something whcih is 'no cost' to them, but valuable to the aggrieved party.

 

[Twister_Ken]

Re: In that case, the owner\'s responsible.

As far as I can work out from firstspirit's less-than-full description, this was locked marina, so there was an act on the part of the operator which caused the problem.

Weird, though, that he seems to have been the only boat affected (unless there's more to the story, which has yet to be revealed)

 

[Twister_Ken]

The joy of being right

Once took a Swan with 2.3 m draft into Salterns, Poole having radioed in, been asked my draught and been directed to a berth.

The boat came gently to a stop as we turned out of the aisle towards the allocated pontoon. We were stuck in the mud, on a falling tide, and completely blocking access to about 30 berths.

So there we sat (actually, someone dinghied ashore for vital refreshments) for a couple of hours, wining and lunching in the cockpit while various frustrated owners having enquired of us why they couldn't get their boats out, went and berated the dockies.

What fun!

 

[pkb]

Re: I will continue to avoid marinas!

are you sure you're in the correct thread?

 

[jimi]

I prefer SIMCAs

Och Aye .. this is the Pre-Loved Vehicle Forum is it not?

All this talk of Marinas, Maxis, Volvos etc can surely only indicate so!

What Forum / Thread do you think you're in perchance?



Jim

 

[Mirelle]

Viva!

My father, whose tolerance of the bad behaviour of eccentric British motorcars was quite high, due to having started in the 1920's, had one - briefly! Quite pretty. Amazing electrics. Guaranteed to stop in every puddle. Friend had an E-type that did the same thing, but more stylishly. One sees why the cousins call Lucas the Prince of Darkness!

What has this to do with sailing - see thread on Dynastarts on PBO!

 

[jimi]

Beetle

Absolutely nothing! My father bought a Beetle at one point. The main rationale being that it would float if my mother happened to drive it into the harbour!

Off to Holland now .. which reminds me .. the worst car ever must be a Daf .. driven by rubber bands!

Jim<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by jimi on 21/08/2002 13:14 (server time).</FONT></P>

 

[dickh]

Re: Viva - fine car...

I'll have you know the Viva was a fine car - particularly the reversing switch - which I personally designed!

dickh
I'd rather be sailing...