Purchasing a boat in germany

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swifty

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Can anybody please advise on the following, after many years of boating on the inland waterways of the Uk. I am about to retire and am looking at purchasing a boat that is registered and kept in Germany. My plan is to use it for 2 years in Europe and then bring it back to the UK. Can any members of this forum please advise me off any major problems that I may encounter with this plan. Thank you.
 
I bought a Princess 41 in Germany, the German owner
had original Bill of Sale, he signed my Bill of Sale,
approved by the RYA. Deal done, no Vat involved due
to age of boat. I was a bit cheeky i motored miles
thru Germany flying the German flag, all i got was
friendly waves from the German police boats.
Would have been different i 'spect if i'd flown the
Red Ensign.
Yup no problem, just make sure you have the
correct paperwork. Specially if Vat is involved
Cheers Tony
 
I bought a Princess 470 in Germany in 1997. Excellent boat but I had huge problems re-registering her in the UK. You might ask why this is so important. Firstly, you will not be able to register yourself as the owner in Germany as you are not a German national or company. Secondly, if you or any subsequent owner wants to raise a mortgage on the boat, it will need to be Part 1 UK registered. In order to Part 1 UK register the boat, you will need an unbroken chain of title from the date of new delivery of the boat and that means original bills of sale, invoices and builders certificate not photocopies and, in my experience, German owners are not very careful about keeping this documentation intact because most boats in Germany are not fully registered. I made the mistake of accepting the broker's undertaking that this documentation would be forthcoming after the sale was completed. Needless to say it was'nt and I ended up spending £'000's employing a lawyor to travel to Germany visiting previous owners to obtain notarised copies of missing documents. So, my advice is to specify which original documents must be supplied with the boat and go to Germany to see them before completing the purchase
My second area of concern when buying a foreign boat is the broker. The broker is the seller's agent and, as such, when you pay all the money to the broker, title passes to you. In theory. But what happens if the broker does'nt pass over what money is due to the seller or simply absconds with it? You are then left to prove title through the German legal system, something that would be both daunting and expensive. So, its safer to buy through a UK based broker if you can such that you can pursue him through the UK legal system if you have to. If you can't do that, then suggest to the broker that you pay the money direct to the seller and the broker's commission direct to him. If you can't do that, then make sure that you take possession of the boat immediately on completion and, if possible, move it to a safe place
The third issue concerns VAT. You don't say whether the boat is VAT paid or not but if it is, you need the original invoice showing that VAT was charged in order to demonstrate to UK Customs that VAT has been paid in Germany or wherever otherwise they will try to extract UK VAT from you.
I've bought 4 boats abroad, one in Germany, 2 in Spain and my current boat in Holland and all subsequently turned out to be sound purchases despite the hassle of documentation. I found German owned boats to be generally very well looked after particularly those in the north of Germany which are often over wintered in heated sheds and only used 6 months a year
 
Im afraid I have to agree with Deleted User about the difficulties of buying a German-registerd boat. The issue will be a need for seamless record of all ownership transactions.

A proposed purchase of mine foundered on the inability of the owner to provide this documentation ( although there were other reasons). You should ensure that a full history (of actual invoices and documents) is available before proceeding.

I don't agree about foreign brokers though - some other countries have pretty stringent regulations as well - as long as you understand the language you should be OK.
 
Learner, its not that I'm saying those johnny foreigner brokers are necessarily more crooked than UK ones, its just that if you have to go to court to prove that you paid the money over to a broker and hence prove your title to the boat, its much better to have to do that through the UK legal system
 
IBO, very much the same as the German experience. A lack of understanding of the necessity to have full and complete title documentation but this time I was wiser. I threatened to walk away unless this documentation was all present and correct and once the broker had got the message as to how serious I was, he pulled his finger out. On the day of the completion, I went to Holland and examined each document and when I was satisfied, I rang my bank to authorise the transfer.
There was also a problem with misrepresentation as well. The sales particulars stated the hours to be 367 and when I first inspected the boat, it was on the hard with the batteries disconnected so I could'nt check the electronic hour meter. I made an offer on the boat but when I came back for the survey, the engine hours were about 410. The survey turned up some other faults and gradually the truth came out that the boat had been unused and not maintained for some 18 months and had been spruced up for sale although fundamentally I felt she was a solid boat. I used this information and the discrepancy in the engine hours together with the faults identified in the survey report to drop my offer substantially, something which the seller took some weeks to swallow
I have to say that we made the classic mistake of accepting everything at face value when we first saw the boat. We were picked up from the airport by the dealer, plied with Dutch hospitality and shown the boat in an undercover display area. All very plush and efficient but had I asked the right questions to begin with, I could have found out about the history of the boat earlier. As it happens, I went through with the purchase, spent about the same amount of money as the reduction in my offer servicing and repairing the equipment that the previous owner had neglected and, fingers crossed, we seem to have a good boat
 
Yes, thats possible but you're still chasing money that was paid overseas to a foreign broker. Deal with a Brit broker and title changes hands when you pay the money to him. All enforceable under UK law and YBDSA regs. There are other advantages to dealing with a Brit broker in that they do appreciate the necessity for proper documentation and can deal direct with finance houses on your behalf plus of course no language probs
 
Be very careful with the Dutch HISWA(marine surveyors assosciation) sales contract.

The deposit is 15% payable before survey. Unless your surveyor condemms the boat or you agree with the vendor that the repairs are more than 10% of the purchase price you have to buy the boat.

If you chose not to go ahead with the purchase you will lose your deposit as a minimum and the vendors could go to the courts to force you to buy the thing.

I got caught out and lost my deposit when the vendors and I could not agree on the costs of repair, rather than throw good money after bad I pulled out.

Incidentally, if anyone wants an English translation of the HISWA contract, PM me and I'll gladly send it off. I would not want to see any other forumites caught out like me.
 
I must reiterate i had no problem at all buying a boat in
Germany. If you have proof of Vat paid, and are not
borrowing money to buy it, and the bill of sale is in
order, go ahead if you are buying it through bona fide
broker check him out, if i was a German broker i would
be jolly angry at some of the aspersions made here.
If as i did, buy the boat from the German owner, with
the previous bill of sale, it is easy to check title.
I am currently waiting for my new boat to be delivered
which i bought secondhand in Greece, through a Broker.
Strangely enough buying through the Broker in Greece
gave me a much stronger feeling of security this time
Do your checks no problem. Cheers Tony
 
Excellent point michael_w. I'd forgotten about that. I was in a sort of betwixt and between situation in that the boat I bought in Holland was being sold by a Dutch broker but the introduction was made by a British broker. I elected to deal through the British broker for a number of reasons even though I realised that each would earn a commission out of the sale and that would possibly reduce any scope for reducing my offer later. The British broker did point out the advantage of dealing with him in that I paid him the normal 10% deposit, not 15%, and he did say that it would be easier for him to repay my deposit if the survey went pear shaped. Having the deposit with the British broker rather than the Dutch broker also put me in a much stronger position when I negotiated a reduction in the selling price after the survey turned up some probs
 
Nobody is casting aspersions but the fact of the matter was that a German broker made me a promise about supplying documentation which he did'nt keep and which ended up costing me a lot of money. With regard to title documents, the point is not that you are satisfied with title but that any subsequent buyer of your boat will be. In my case, I was not taking out a mortgage on the boat but I recognised that any future buyer of my boat might want to so it was necessary for me to Part 1 register the boat. Part 1 registry even adds to the value of the boat because of this
It never ceases to amaze me that people are willing to spend the price of a house on a secondhand boat without being aware of the possible risks attached to the transaction. Yes 99.9% of boat sales proceed without a problem but it's only sensible to take every precaution to ensure that you don't end up in the 0.1%
 
[ QUOTE ]
I must reiterate i had no problem at all buying a boat in
Germany. If you have proof of Vat paid, and are not
borrowing money to buy it, and the bill of sale is in
order, go ahead if you are buying it through bona fide
broker check him out, if i was a German broker i would
be jolly angry at some of the aspersions made here.
If as i did, buy the boat from the German owner, with
the previous bill of sale, it is easy to check title.


[/ QUOTE ]


You might be very angry if you were a German broker BUT German brokers would not generally know either a) UK registration processes requirements b) UK finance company requirements or c) Normal UK 'brokerage' Ts and Cs - so the comments are fair . You may have been suitably well armed to avoid all the pitfalls - others may not.

I would repeat that you need the entire ownership history to do a)-c) above properly - and that surprises some continental brokers.
 
I take your point, some folk do rush in without enough
checks,but if Swifty carries out his checks, he will have
no problem. He is dealing in an EU country there are
as you know many excellent brokers both here and
abroad.If he goes the private route, like i did dealing
with the owner yourself you can ask many more
questions, that maybe the broker may not ask, and
see more paperwork,ie past history and bills.
All my boats by the way have been Part 3 registered
matter of choice really, but i'm a known meanie!!
We have all given him good advice.
 
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