Puma 37 - imbecilic questions

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doctorfresh

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Is it all right to ask idiot questions on here? (Some might say it is a well worn path - I wouldn't dare)

I have just bought a Puma 37 (basically a Spanish built Moody). I am a qualified but inexperienced sailor (there is a conundrum regarding how one gets experience without a yacht etc.)

Firstly, it is the first yacht I will have sailed with a centre cockpit. The main sheet is attached to the rear cabin coach roof. No traveller because of the door to the rear cabin. There are two small winches to PT and SB at the rear of the headsail winches, (Lewmar 24s). Presumably one of these (or both, depending whether one is left or right handed) is for the main sheet?

What comments does anyone have about putting a further winch on the rear cabin coach roof for the main sheet, rather than using the two aftmost cockpit winches? Otherwise, the main sheet will cross one of the rear corners of the cockpit behind the helm (i.e. across the corner)

Secondly, she has non-self tailing winches. Fine for a racing crew but as I intend to cruise with my family, I want to instal self tailing winches for a much smaller (effective) crew. The current winches are Lewmars: 2 x 42 (headsail/spinny), 2 x 24s (presumably for the main sheet) and (on the coach roof) 2 x 16s (for the halyards). Questions:

1. Aren't these a bit underpowered for the main (Lewmar recommend 30-40s, using the sail plan) or the halyards (Lewmar recommend 30-40s for the main and genoa halyard)

2. Any recommendations for self tailing replacements?

3. Are these hard to fit (for someone with scant hands-on experience/ability)? (I suspect my practical abilities will be on a steep upwards curve from now on) Otherwise, is it worth seeing if I can find a contractor to do so?

Any other comments welcome.

Thanks...
 
Are your "mainsheet winches" on the cockpit coamings rather than on the aft coachroof? If so, I think you're looking at secondary sheet winches, usually used for spinnaker sheet and guy, rather than mainsheet winches.

How big's the tackle on the mainsheet, and does it have a jammer? It may well be designed to operate without a winch; personally I prefer this albeit most of my experience is on smaller boats.

If you want to fit self-tailers, I'd suggest simply getting the ST version of the same winches, as then they'll fit the same bolt holes (as far as I know, anyway - I'm doing exactly this changing Lewmar 16s to 16STs, and the holes look the same).

As for hard to fit - it's not rocket science, but only you know how much of a mechanical numpty you are (or are not).

Pete
 
prv said:
Are your "mainsheet winches" on the cockpit coamings rather than on the aft coachroof? If so, I think you're looking at secondary sheet winches, usually used for spinnaker sheet and guy, rather than mainsheet winches.

How big's the tackle on the mainsheet, and does it have a jammer? It may well be designed to operate without a winch; personally I prefer this albeit most of my experience is on smaller boats.

If you want to fit self-tailers, I'd suggest simply getting the ST version of the same winches, as then they'll fit the same bolt holes (as far as I know, anyway - I'm doing exactly this changing Lewmar 16s to 16STs, and the holes look the same).

As for hard to fit - it's not rocket science, but only you know how much of a mechanical numpty you are (or are not).

Pete
Click to expand...
I changed Lewmar 30 to 30ST. Only 2 of the 5 holes aligned. I think this is par for the course. I agree the 24's are secondary sheet/spinnaker winches.
 
All depends on what You like, so first try it how it is, then You'll know.
As mainsheet - if you'll feel a winch is needed - get more powerful tackle ;) Without a traveller take care to have good boom vang.

Not self-tailing winches are as good provided they are accessible with comfort, so to say. No problem as long as you have both hands free to operate. I prefer it this way. (then again it's old school; prefer to take genoa sheet in by hand, not to bother with winch handles - possible even on 60 footer when you spill the wind from it by changing course for a moment) Get easily locking winch handles (there is a 'one touch kind') of a length and design that's comfortable, it's more important IMHO.
Not knowing the boat layout can't say if this is the way to go, you'll see for yourself, nothing against the change when you find it uncomfortable. But those are already there, so.

Only time I've sailed with self-tailers for longer was when first mate got her hand broken by sheet on self-tailer :mad: - took us 5 days to deliver her to hospital, as this was close to Greenland... You payse your money and takes your choise...
 
Thanks - I had just realised my error. I don't think that a mainsheet winch is required due to the size of the tackle. Also, as the sheet is attached to the end of the boom, the boom will work in my favour as a lever whereas on the aft cockpit yachts I have sailed before, the sheet is attached to the boom near to the mast, hence the leverage worked against the 'hauler'.

Just a matter of common sense, experience and of sailing differently rigged yachts.

So, thanks - I agree that the rear winches are secondary winches for a spinnaker guy etc.

I did prefect this with suggesting it was an idiotic question...
 
Stork_III said:
I changed Lewmar 30 to 30ST. Only 2 of the 5 holes aligned. I think this is par for the course.
Click to expand...

Fair enough. My 16s look like they should line up, but I haven't actually tried it yet.

Interesting to note that the plain 16 is a two-speed winch while the 16ST is single speed. Having dismantled both of them (albeit not next to each other) I can't really see why that should be the case. The single speed of the ST is the same ratio as the high power of the 16, so I don't think it will matter to me in practice, but a curious anomaly.

Pete
 
I also changed from 30s to 30STs and Lewmar were most helpful sending me the fitting drawings for both types so that I could plan the change. Actually the 30s are on a pitch circle slightly smaller but evenly spaced, whereas the 30STs are on a PCD a couple of mm larger and unevenly spaced to accomodate the different gears.

Just found a piccy of the Puma 37 cockpit showing all the winches and the mainsheet tackle. Agreed the winches on the coamings are primary and secondary sheet winches, whilst the mainsheet tackle appears to be quite seperate and presumably has a cleat on the lower block. Sorry about the long URL...

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?hl=e...95&start=18&ndsp=26&ved=1t:429,r:24,s:0,i:166

Rob.
 
Thanks Rob - just what I was looking for.

I am about 3 1/2 hours from the yacht and trying to get everything ready for the end of March when she goes into the water. Budget of about £10k for improvements, so the winches take a big bite out of this.

The electronics on her seem to be 'original', which might appeal to estate agents but not to me. I think I'll be pestering Raymarine at the London Boat Show on the 19th about that!
 
doctorfresh said:
1. Aren't these a bit underpowered for the main (Lewmar recommend 30-40s, using the sail plan) or the halyards (Lewmar recommend 30-40s for the main and genoa halyard)
Click to expand...
Best answer is - try to sail with the old ones first or ask someone who have sailed it..
But going one size up is never wrong (except cost)

doctorfresh said:
2. Any recommendations for self tailing replacements?
Click to expand...
Check prices - there are several good makes around.
Going for the same make as you have is no guarantee for matching the holes..

doctorfresh said:
3. Are these hard to fit (for someone with scant hands-on experience/ability)? (I suspect my practical abilities will be on a steep upwards curve from now on) Otherwise, is it worth seeing if I can find a contractor to do so?
Click to expand...
This is a two person job.
These are probably bolted on with nuts on the underside.
So to take them of you need access to the underside, probably a cover plate you will have to remove to get access.

When I replaced the winches on my boat we filled the old holes with thickened epoxy.
(Use tape to seal the underside of hole, use a brush to apply un-thickened epoxy to the walls of the hole, use a syringe to fill the hole with thickened epoxy).

Drill holes for the new winch (check the manual for correct placement)
Use sealant between winch base and deck.
Bolt the winch in place with suitable washers/backing plate

doctorfresh said:
Any other comments welcome.
Thanks...
Click to expand...
Self-tailing winches makes short handed sailing easier but new winches are expensive:(
 
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Another imbecilic answer

doctorfresh said:
The electronics on her seem to be 'original', which might appeal to estate agents but not to me. I think I'll be pestering Raymarine at the London Boat Show on the 19th about that!
Click to expand...
Keep very basic old style GPS if there is one. As safety measure. Some were rugged and drawing very little current, nice to have when electrics go bust, as happens sooner or later :D
Rig the cables so they are visible and may be connected to anything with no fuss.
 
Self tailers are great, but if you are cruising you will have the AP on most of the time, and have hands free to tail for yourself.

Winch power is far more important. The best cruiser/racers come with winches that will break things. AWBs don't and make life hard but 'safe'.

My advice would be to sail it for a while and log the experiences with a view to next winters' refit.
 
doctorfresh said:
1. Aren't these a bit underpowered for the main (Lewmar recommend 30-40s, using the sail plan) or the halyards (Lewmar recommend 30-40s for the main and genoa halyard)


Any other comments welcome.

Thanks...
Click to expand...

Before you cough up the extra money for larger winches, try using the existing ones with good winch handles. A pal bought one one of these when he dropped the existing one overboard during a race and it made such a difference to my ability to winch that I went out and bought a second - a rash step for a Yorkshireman. First they are 10 inch rather than the more common 8 which is a 25% load reduction and secondly they allow you to use both hands standing over the winch and therefore using the muscles of your trunk and not just your arm.

I have a 36 ft 8 tonnes boat whichj we race and I'm a 67 year old of average fitness. I manage quite well on the genoa using these handles and lewmar 42 winches. OK I tire when we are short tacking and the helm is less than considerate in slamming the boat through the wind but the only answer to that is electric. Or a 24 year old body. I cant afford the former and I would need Jesus to get the latter.
 
wotayottie said:
they allow you to use both hands standing over the winch and therefore using the muscles of your trunk and not just your arm.
Click to expand...

Surely that's how anyone should operate a winch, regardless of what handle is used?

(Can't argue with the 25% increase in leverage though :) )

Pete
 
Power Grip or Double Grip - any comments?

I am 47, wife 46 but our 'crew' is the usual bunch of semi-reluctant teenagers!

("Semi reluctant teenagers" are OUR children; neither of us are BBC celebrities!!!)
 
I wouldn't fit a winch for a main sheet on that size boat, it's not neeeded. The usual set up for that size is a block and tackle with an in-built jammer. The benefit of that is if a big gust comes through it's much quicker to unjam the sheet and ease the main than get the sheet off a winch. Plus you don't have the risk of your getting hand tangled in the winch, which I have seen happen with a genoa sheet, broken fingers and crushed hand.
 
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