Proving title to half of the boat

[Tomahawk]

Simple question..

Does the vessel have to be registered on Pt 1 of the shipping register in order for someone to prove title to a half, or other share ?

 

[prv]

The standard bill of sale form records this information. That would be a proof in a sense, though of course it could be forged.

Pete

 

[Swanrad2]

The standard bill of sale form records this information. That would be a proof in a sense, though of course it could be forged.

Pete

The bill of sale should contain a warranty against challenges of ownership. I.e. old owner warrants that they are entitled to sell the half they are selling. Is it not this warranty that conveys protection - if it is a fib, the individual selling the half is liable?

 

[Tranona]

No. The Part 1 register is just that - a register of title, not the title itself. It is good evidence but not the only evidence. For my boat the Bill of Sale is to myself and my wife and her interest is shown on the insurance certificate. I could not pass title on my own, neither could she (assuming we were both still alive).

 

[bedouin]

I think if the boat is not Part 1 registered you would need an explicit written agreement with the other owners to be able to sell your interest in the boat.

If you own say 32/64ths of the boat (as opposed to half owning 64/64ths) then you should be able to sell without reference to the other owners. Not sure if that really makes sense with a pleasure boat.

Of course being Part 1 registered does not PROVE title anyway

 

[GrahamM376]

SSR (Part 3) can be in joint or more names but, it doesn't prove "title" in a legal sense. However, I doubt a broker would sell the boat without signatures from all listed and it would satisfy most people purchasing.

 

[ruaridhmaccallum]

No, but it's probably your best bet.
Don't confuse the Bill of Sale with an actual Registration Certificate. Plenty of people receive and hold a MCA / DoT bill of sale, but don't get round to (or don't want to spend the money) updating the Part 1 register. If the Bill of Sale is accepted by the Ship Registry and a certificate issued showing shared ownership, then both (or all) parties would have to sign a subsequent Bill of Sale to register the vessel in favour of a new owner.
As others have pointed out it might not actually prove you title to your share in a court of law, but it would certainly help and it's a pretty big dis-incentive for someone buying a boat if one of the parties on the Part 1 register won't sign the Bill of Sale.

 

[prv]

The bill of sale should contain a warranty against challenges of ownership. I.e. old owner warrants that they are entitled to sell the half they are selling. Is it not this warranty that conveys protection - if it is a fib, the individual selling the half is liable?

He's not buying the boat - he wants to prove his ownership to somebody else. He could do that with the bill of sale from the previous owner to him. Fair enough, and probably acceptable for most purposes if there's no existing reason to doubt him.

However, nothing is *actually* stopping him from writing out a completely new bill of sale (with the real old owner's details or a completely made-up one to make checking harder), backdating it to when he (says he) bought the boat, and presenting that in the same way. If he did that, it's no fault of the real previous seller.

Pete

 

[ruaridhmaccallum]

SSR (Part 3) can be in joint or more names but, it doesn't prove "title" in a legal sense. However, I doubt a broker would sell the boat without signatures from all listed and it would satisfy most people purchasing.

The SSR is often misunderstood, and it's important to remember that you don't have to show ANY kind of purchase paperwork to get an SSR certificate - you just have to be a UK resident. You could effectively get an SSR certificate for someone else's boat (with different number of course).
SSR cannot be "transferred" - technically the seller surrenders it back to the registry, and the buyer applies for a new SSR - although the same number can be used.
You're right though, that brokers would steer well clear of a boat where a named party on an SSR certificate was not in agreement or un-contactable, but there's nothing to stop an unscrupulous shareholder getting a new SSR in his name alone and putting new numbers on the boat (they're allowed to just be stickers, unlike the Part 1 number)

 

[ruaridhmaccallum]

However, nothing is *actually* stopping him from writing out a completely new bill of sale (with the real old owner's details or a completely made-up one to make checking harder), backdating it to when he (says he) bought the boat, and presenting that in the same way. If he did that, it's no fault of the real previous seller.

Pete

Except that this wouldn't work if everyone in the chain was actually updating the Part 1 register and getting a new certificate each time. When the Bill of Sale was rejected by the registry it would be seen as fraudulent and the buyer would have legal redress to reverse the transaction. Of course by then the seller could have scarpered but if we're talking about completely criminal practice the possibilities are endless......

 

[prv]

Except that this wouldn't work if everyone in the chain was actually updating the Part 1 register and getting a new certificate each time.

I thought the whole point was proving ownership of a boat which isn't on the Part One register?

Pete

 

[ruaridhmaccallum]

I thought the whole point was proving ownership of a boat which isn't on the Part One register?

Pete

Ah - OK - I was following on from my original position that the Part 1 register while not perfect is probably the best way to administer shared ownership.
A Bill of Sale not tied to the registry is just like any other contract drawn up between two parties to transfer ownership of something: they range from fully legal and watertight through to not worth the paper they're written on.

 

[GrahamM376]

A Bill of Sale not tied to the registry is just like any other contract drawn up between two parties to transfer ownership of something: they range from fully legal and watertight through to not worth the paper they're written on.

Correct. In these days of scanners, OCR etc. a complete paper trail from new, including hull build certificate, various transfer of ownership documents etc. to any date you like, would probably take a day's work. A Part 3 registration is also easy to obtain.

 

[Bru]

Simple question..

Does the vessel have to be registered on Pt 1 of the shipping register in order for someone to prove title to a half, or other share ?

To de-complicate the issue ... no!

Anything from a verbal agreement to whatever form of documentation the parties saw fit to draw up *could* prove title to a share if the courts saw fit to accept it

And that's the nub of it, there is no 100% gold plated guaranteed means of proving title to a chattel

That said, the accepted form of an MCA or RYA format Bill of Sale from the previous owner transferring x/64th share to someone would generally be regarded, in the absence of any contradictory evidence, as proof of title to that share

(Had to play Bill of Sale silly b*gg*rs recently when selling Brigantia and buying Erbas 'cos my mate Rik owns a shareholding and to simplify matters we needed a bill of sale transferring his share to me so that I could make out the bill of sale to the new owner. Likewise, having purchased Erbas we then needed to make out a bill of sale transerring Riks' share to him. Paperwork all over the place!)

 

[ianat182]

I'm the joint owner of our yacht i.e. we both own the whole yacht and stated this on our bill of sale at the outset of our partnership. In the event I pop clogs before he does I take it that there would not be a further bill of sale transferring whole ownership to him, which I thought means that I have to include in my will a form of transference of ownership ,as I can't sign a new bill of sale obviously; he in turn may need another document to advise MCA for Pt 1 Re-registration, Death Cert or copy of probate ,as the new owner.
I act as the manager of the yacht for Moorings and Insurance etc, but both of our names are quoted at each renewal.

Any qualified advice would be useful!


ianat182

 

[Tranona]

I'm the joint owner of our yacht i.e. we both own the whole yacht and stated this on our bill of sale at the outset of our partnership. In the event I pop clogs before he does I take it that there would not be a further bill of sale transferring whole ownership to him, which I thought means that I have to include in my will a form of transference of ownership ,as I can't sign a new bill of sale obviously; he in turn may need another document to advise MCA for Pt 1 Re-registration, Death Cert or copy of probate ,as the new owner.
I act as the manager of the yacht for Moorings and Insurance etc, but both of our names are quoted at each renewal.

Any qualified advice would be useful!


ianat182

Depends on how your shared ownership is defined. If you each own 32/64 independently then your share passes to the benificiaries under the terms of your will. If you are not related and you want your estate to own the asset this is the way to do it. You can also have a separate agreement that determines what happens if you die (or want to sell, or dissolve the partnership) which might for example give the option for the other owner to buy your share (from your estate if you are gone!) at a valuation. Your executor would then do the transfer of ownership in accordance with your instructions in your will.

 

[ianat182]

Thanks Tranona,that sounds a logical procedure even though I doubt he would go for Pt1 registration himself, probably SSR ,but at least he'd have a Bill of Sale then.


ianat182

 

[Tranona]

Thanks Tranona,that sounds a logical procedure even though I doubt he would go for Pt1 registration himself, probably SSR ,but at least he'd have a Bill of Sale then.


ianat182

There is no need for Part 1 registration. You just need clear documentation which shows the ownership position and what happens in the event of dissolution of the partnership or death of one of the partners. You will find some useful information on partnerships and agreements on the RYA site.

 

[Bru]

ahem, you mentioned that you and your partner are joint owners which means that the above does not apply!

if you die, your partner automatically gains sole title to the boat (because he/she already legally owns the whole boat ... as do you)

if you left your "share" to someone else in your will, it would ultimately be a matter for the courts to decide whether that created a new joint ownership, a new co-ownership or indeed to reject the clause in your will and confirm sole title to your partner. Not an ideal situation for your executors

basically, if it is NOT your intention that your partner should own the boat outright in the event of your demise, change the arrangement from joint ownership (where you both own 64 shares jointly) to co-ownership (wether you each own 32 shares)

more detailed advise and the necessary forms can be found on the RYA website (members only)

 

[Tranona]

ahem, you mentioned that you and your partner are joint owners which means that the above does not apply!

if you die, your partner automatically gains sole title to the boat (because he/she already legally owns the whole boat ... as do you)

if you left your "share" to someone else in your will, it would ultimately be a matter for the courts to decide whether that created a new joint ownership, a new co-ownership or indeed to reject the clause in your will and confirm sole title to your partner. Not an ideal situation for your executors

basically, if it is NOT your intention that your partner should own the boat outright in the event of your demise, change the arrangement from joint ownership (where you both own 64 shares jointly) to co-ownership (wether you each own 32 shares)

more detailed advise and the necessary forms can be found on the RYA website (members only)

See posts #16 and 18.