Proof Of VAT Paid

[MedDreamer]

Just getting all paperwork sorted for moving boat to Majorca.

According to agent I need Ships Registration Document (SSR no problem), Bill of Sale (no problem) and proof of VAT paid.

Reading previous posts on here I thought that what is required is the original sales invoice from dealer to customer so I rang dealer to see if I could have a copy. They said that they could not give me that due to Data Protection law and that their normal procedure was to issue a letter stating that VAT had been paid on first purchase. They said that in their experience this had always been sufficient and very promptly sent me the letter - I was impressed by the service.

I am a bit concerned however as to whether this will satisfy the Spanish authorities.
Can anybody advise and is the dealer correct in saying that they cannot give me a copy of the original invoice (If this is true how do you ever get Part1 registration on a secondhand unregistered boat where you have to proove title)

Thanks for any help you can offer








<hr width=100% size=1>Martyn

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

I stand to be corrected but I cant see that a letter would be sufficient to prove VAT status and certainly not title. Whenever I've bought a secondhand boat in the past, I've always insisted on at least a copy (the original is preferable) of the invoice showing VAT payment together with a train of invoices/bills of sale showing changes of ownership. If ever you want to Part 1 register your boat, the UK Registry will request originals or notarised copies of these documents although I understand that other Registries (eg Guernsey) are less demanding

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[MedDreamer]

Thats my feeling too Mike, I wonder if anyone else has had the experience

<hr width=100% size=1>Martyn

 

[EME]

My aborted boat buying experience this year 'hinged' on the ability of the supposed vendor to prove title and vat -paid status in notarised form. This is how I discovered dubious title to the boat.

Interestingly the manufacturer / dealer of original sale ( Sunseeker/Sunseeker germany) were only to obliging to provide notarised copies of original sales without reference to original owner.

Knowing how obsessive the Germans are about Data Protection issues ( they take it a lot more seriously than we do ), I would be somewhat wary of the UK broker's action here. Suggest you ask yourself what they are attempting to conceal ... as every financed boat in UK has to prove full history for registration purposes as Deleted User has correctly outlined , they MUST be used to the process and providing this documentation.

<hr width=100% size=1><font color=blue>I am WHAT I say I am</font color=blue>

 

[Observer]

The original VAT invoice or a copy, certified by the person who issued it as a true copy, is preferable. However, they may be right about the DPA not allowing them to issue a copy - I'm no expert on DPA.

If you can't get more than a letter, I would suggest something along the lines of the following.

TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN

[Vessel make/mode] [HIN]

We hereby certify that the above vessel was supplied by us as a new vessel to a [private] buyer under our invoice number [] dated [] for the sum of [£] plus VAT of [£]. We are prevented by Data Protection Act legislation from issuing a copy of the invoice to subsequent owners.

[signed]
[name of dealer]

The letter should show full business identity, address and VAT registration number.

You don't say how many previous owners. If you are buying from the first owner, can he not give you the original invoice or authorise the dealer to give you a copy?


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[MedDreamer]

There are two previous owners. I am not actually suspicious of the dealers actions as the dealer who sold the boat new and the broker who sold me it are both very reputable business's (I'm not going to name them but its a Bayliner bought new on Windermere and I bought it from a broker who took my boat as p/x for a new Sealine F33 so if you know Bowness that should tell you). I may be naive but I don't think either of those companies would want to taint their reputation by a VAT scam on a £45k boat.




<hr width=100% size=1>Martyn

 

[DavidJ]

It annoys me when dealers will invent excuses like "Data Protection Law" for not giving you the documents. So if you could prove that you did not infringe the law then they would give you the documentation....think not...they have lost it!! My experience is that the authorities (in my case Italian) not being able to read English will recognise an original bill of sale and will be ok with it. Your letter, even though possibly acceptable, is unlikely to satisfy.

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[c_j]

My understanding when original documents are referred to is just that, originals. Not copy's.

When you buy a boat the seller must proove title and if you bought it from a dealer he in turn must show title. Part of that title is proving that VAT has been paid and to that end the original Vat invoice is of great importance. That is how you get Part one, by having the original documents. I suspect that the original has been lost by a previous owner although it is of such significance that I am suprised. I must ask, how did you come to buy it without the original VAT invoice in the first place.

I would go to the original first owner of the boat who should have the invoice or at least be able to say if he passed it on the the second. The name of the first owner will be on the original bill of sale. I cannot see why the original owner would not be able to sanction the production of a copy of the original VAT invoice without any Data transgressions, after all it is his invoice.

Could it be that the Data the dealer is really trying to protect is the price paid for the boat new?

Why are you sure that VAT has been paid?

If you bought it from a dealer then it could be argued that his duty of care extended to providing you with the correct paperwork.


<hr width=100% size=1>CJ
cjs@stone.uk.com


<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.stone.uk.com>http://www.stone.uk.com</A>

 

[MedDreamer]

I am quite SURE that the reason I have not got the original invoice is the reason you allude to.

I know that the two previous owners bought the boat as individuals and as such I can't see how they could dodge the VAT.

Nothing really suprises me in this world but I would be amazed if the two companies concerned would do anything underhand re VAT.

I thought everything was going too smoothly..........



<hr width=100% size=1>Martyn

 

[PhilF]

when I bought mine I got certified copies of previous invoices.
They can provide them if they ask the previous owners permission

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[Bergman]

I don't understand why this is such a big issue with boats.

There seems to be no problem with cars or other products.

Is it really the case that one must be able to prove VAT status of everything one owns.

I would have thought the innocent until proved guilty principle should apply. That is on a product made or originally sold within the EU VAT is assumed to have been paid unless C&E can prove otherwise.

Have there been any cases of C&E demanding a second dose of VAT on a boat - or anything else?

Seems an absolutely crazy situation to me, what if original owner is dead, or emigrated to Vanuatu, or in prison, evidence clearly impossible to produce therefore guilty.

If he illegally evaded VAT then that is between him and C&E don't see they have any right in natural justice to come to someone else and squeeze cash from them.

Madness

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[Gludy]

If you have a copy of the original invoices stamped and signed as certified by the supplier of the oat - is that sufficient proof off VAT paid?

Really all that should interest other Customs is the fact that the boat is taxable in the UK - yet try and get a letter from the VAT people here to say that the boat is a UK matter - or even that they are satisfied that the boat is a UK tax matter.
I asked them if they wee satisfied that the boat was a UK tax matter - they said "Yes" - I asked them if they would write a letter to me stating that they were satisfied that it is a UK tax matter - they said "No".

I have copies of original invoices stamped and certified as genuine copies - all the Bills of Sale and hope that this is enough. It would be much simpler if I had the original invoice instead o just a copy though.


<hr width=100% size=1>Paul

 

[BrendanS]

You think it's bad here - try Germany.

They've a ruling that if a boat leaves the country for more than 3 years, it has to pay VAT again when it returns. Even in VAT was paid first time round

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[jfm]

Bergman you ought to be right, but as a matter of UK law the tax man is allowed to make an assessment to the best of his knowledge (ie, could be just a hunch) and then onus of proof is on the taxpayer. I agree it may not be right, but that's the law

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[Birdseye]

According to HMC&E, the law does not specify the documents required to prove vat status - it simply says that you have to be able to prove it if required to do so. the original vat invoice is handy since it proves vat was accounted for and it also proves that it was not subsequently reclaimed on exprt of the boat (you would have had to surrender the original vat invoice to get the vat back). This is why a copy will not do, even if signed by the original issuer.

However, a sale by private treaty between two UK residents taking place in the UK is a matter for UK customs. So in theory, a UK bill of sale showing this should be sufficient.

Having said all this, the rules may well be totally different as interpreted by a foreign customs guy with dispepsia, who has a dislike of British people, and has had a rough time from his boss / wife. So no real point in asking on the forum - better ask the foreign customs. They may well be more helpful than the UK ones - they could hardly be less!

You may well find that if you become resident abroad and the boat becomes foreign, that you will be subject to some other taxes anyway. i remember there was something about this happening in spain on one of these forums.

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[Birdseye]

According to HMC&E, the law does not specify the documents required to prove vat status - it simply says that you have to be able to prove it if required to do so. the original vat invoice is handy since it proves vat was accounted for and it also proves that it was not subsequently reclaimed on exprt of the boat (you would have had to surrender the original vat invoice to get the vat back). This is why a copy will not do, even if signed by the original issuer.

However, a sale by private treaty between two UK residents taking place in the UK is a matter for UK customs. So in theory, a UK bill of sale showing this should be sufficient.

Having said all this, the rules may well be totally different as interpreted by a foreign customs guy with dispepsia, who has a dislike of British people, and has had a rough time from his boss / wife. So no real point in asking on the forum - better ask the foreign customs. They may well be more helpful than the UK ones - they could hardly be less!

You may well find that if you become resident abroad and the boat becomes foreign, that you will be subject to some other taxes anyway. i remember there was something about this happening in spain on one of these forums.

If the vat is a serious amount of money, get some professional advice. i'm not a lawyer, and i suspect that neither are most of us here.

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[Observer]

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>

However, a sale by private treaty between two UK residents taking place in the UK is a matter for UK customs. So in theory, a UK bill of sale showing this should be sufficient.

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Trouble is, a bill of sale doesn't prove the place of supply which is the critical determinant of where a supply of goods is taxable. A bill of sale could easily be passed between two UK residents in respect of a boat in (say) France. If that transaction is taxable, it would be taxable in France. C&E does advise that a bill of sale between two UK residents will do the job, but the advice is actually a bit suspect.


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[c_j]

How can a bill of sale be any use with regards to VAT. It need not (and in the case of larger sums hardly ever does) disclose the amount paid. One pound and other consideration is normal.

Somebody said what if the former owner dies, how do you get the Vat invoice then?

This is the whole point. The boat should be accompanied by all of its papers. Original Builders certificate, Original VAT invoice, bill of sale from builder to first supplying dealer (unless they are one in the same, like Princess or Sealine, but not Fairline whose first transaction is from Peters to Dealer) and then Bill of sale from each owner to the next. People say this is important if you want to Part one register. Hells teeth, this is important period.

I don't think that the Vat invoice should be considered the property of the first owner but a document belonging to the boat specifically to prove its VAT status.

The problem is, it shows what the first owner paid for the boat and many brokers/ dealers would prefer this information kept private. As explained the bill of sale does not have to give away the price paid, but the Vat invoice does.

Why are they sensitive to this, well if you bought a boat and then found you paid more than the original owner paid new, would you feel a bit let down?

Or if you had sight of the price paid new when negotiating might it affect your offer?

<hr width=100% size=1>CJ
cjs@stone.uk.com


<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.stone.uk.com>http://www.stone.uk.com</A>

 

[BarryH]

I Phoned C&E a While ago about this. The answer you get depends on who you speak to at the time and how they interpret the "book".
The person that I spoke to seemed to think that the bill of sale that I got from the dealer was sufficient. My boat was purchased from a dealer who took it in part ex. There was no "paper work" with it what so ever. The only bit of paper I have is the bill of sale from my purchase of it. Uk C&E are fine with that, but the French authorities say that its not worth the paper its written on. Same goes for boats that were in the EEC before that date in Dec 91 or when ever it was. Or built before a certain date.

The British C&E and those of other countries work from a different set of rules. The only place where I have never been asked for any paper work of any kind is Ireland. The Irish have a live and let live attitude towards most things.


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[Deleted User YDKXO]

Agree with you, cj. You would'nt buy a house without all sorts of proof of title being determined by a solicitor and yet with boats, some of which cost more than the average price of a house in the UK, some buyers seem to treat it like buying a used car
I think you're right about some dealers wanting to conceal previous prices but I think the problem is also that they cant be bothered to chase down the paperwork

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