Proof of ownership.

[JumbleDuck]

Acceptance is pretty much universal, even though it was originally prompted by our French friends.

Part 1 is difficult and for some boats and people impossible, plus expensive for initial registration.

I understand that Part I is easier now, but that in those days it involved a paperwork trail which could be very difficult to establish for older boats. I've kept my boat on Part I because she always has been and the renewal doesn't cost much, but it doesn't really matter for me.

 

[davidej]

As a matter of interest, does any one know of a instance where someone has bought and paid for a boat in good faith and then a third party has come along and claimed title?

I think this is a bit like the threads about how do you prove VAT status - great fun for the experts but no application in the real world.

 

[Scotty_Tradewind]

Slight thread drift......

The longer I am sailing abroad, the more i realise that any documentation that indicates your identity, with a photo of yourself on the document, helps.
This, alongside the obvious document requirements when abroad, can quickly bring a Frontier Force visit, to a friendly closure.

A ships papers folder may contain.......

* Registration document.
* Bill of sale (+old bills of sale if boat has changed hands a few times)
* Original Proof of VAT payment.
* Insurance for boat
* RYA certificates
* VHF/SSR Radio certificates
* ICC certificate
* Driving Licence
* Passport copy
+ any paperwork (Bills etc) related to your boat with your name and address on it
+ Photos of your boat showing its name.

 

[Bosun Higgs]

I suppose that this question must have been raised before. The ssr certificate says "details of registered ownership"
but it is a non-title registration.
Are many boats registered in a way to prove ownership ?
Is a simple, un-registered BoS sufficient ?

Boats are like most other posessions - proof of ownership is not available from a state run registry. If you had to prove ownership in court you would have to do it through such evidence as was available - bills of sale, useage, insurance record, ships register, personal evidence etc. In other words a whole collection of things that together make a compelling case that its your boat, or car, or motorbike. Maybe its the same for aircraft - I dont know. What happens with land and housing is the exception rather than the rule.

 

[Tranona]

As a matter of interest, does any one know of a instance where someone has bought and paid for a boat in good faith and then a third party has come along and claimed title?

I think this is a bit like the threads about how do you prove VAT status - great fun for the experts but no application in the real world.

Yes, there have been cases, although they rarely get into the public domain because they get settled before they get to court. The two most obvious are unregistered loans secured on the boat, although these are more difficult to enforce than secured loans, and hidden shared ownership. For example boat sold by one party in a marriage breakup where the boat is in fact co owned.

Because title does not have to be registered anywhere there is always a possibility of another claimant simply because there is no certain way of checking the title document from the previous purchase. That is why a good trail of title changes reduces the possibility of a third party claim. The more times the boat has changed hands without challenge the less likely there is to be one. A registered boat also reduces the chances because the registry insists on a sound title trail as a condition of registration, although not as stringent as in the past.

Hopefully in the future poor title histories will be less common as for the last 20 years or so new boat documents, including HIN numbers have been much better, so there is a better chance that subsequent owners will have kept the documentation trail intact.

 

[25931]

Hopefully in the future poor title histories will be less common as for the last 20 years or so new boat documents, including HIN numbers have been much better, so there is a better chance that subsequent owners will have kept the documentation trail intact.[/QUOTE]

But the ssr refuses to show HIN of a 20 year old boat.

 

[Tranona]

Hopefully in the future poor title histories will be less common as for the last 20 years or so new boat documents, including HIN numbers have been much better, so there is a better chance that subsequent owners will have kept the documentation trail intact.

But the ssr refuses to show HIN of a 20 year old boat.[/QUOTE]

That is because boats of that age (generally) did not have an HIN. That only came in in 1998. Before that many builders did not have any system of identifying and recording the boats they built. Anyway the HIN is of limited value as there is no central register as there is with VIN for cars.

Just to stress title of boats rests with the Bill of Sale in the UK. It is different in many countries in Europe where a boat has an official identity recorded on the state registration, and registration is compulsory.

There is not a great deal of enthusiasm for compulsory registration in the UK as our current system overall works very well.

 

[Mark-1]

The more I think about ssr the more I realize how ridiculous it is ...
I'm sure that the situation would be much better if the RYA were to set up a registration scheme which could include proof of ownwership and include the hull nº which ssr say they cannot include for a vessel built before 2000

I think the current SSR scheme was originally set up and run by the RYA.

 

[Serin]

Unless the original purchase was in both names then any transfer of title of part of the boat should be evidenced by a Bill of Sale - even if no money changes hands. You can have either joint ownership (which we have on our boat) or common ownership where the parties separately own a defined share of the boat (which is normally in 64ths). With the latter, as with houses the shares can be sold (or bequeathed) independently whereas with joint they have to be sold together. You can of course convert joint to shared if for example you wanted to bequeath the boat to two different people.

There is a very good section in the RYA information on ownership issues on what to do when an owner dies. Too often in the past transfer of ownership was not properly documented causes problems for later owners, so it is a good idea to read that section on the website both to ensure that the documentation is correct before you go and that your executor(s) are clear about what to do when the time comes.

Thanks for this, Tranona. My husband bought the hull just before we were married and changed the registration shortly thereafter. I expect there is a bill of sale for the hull buried somewhere in the ancient files. However, his will may also be relevant, as everything was left to me apart from one or two specific small bequests.

The boat is bequeathed to his nephew in my will, but I'm hoping I shall live to hand it over myself when I can no longer use it. In that case, I hope the registration plus my husband's will can be accepted as proof of ownership.

I shall have a look at the relevant section of the RYA site as you suggest. I doubt if there is much danger of a third party claim, as my boat, which is, in actual fact, the finest boat in England, if not the world, does not necessarily appeal to the whippersnappers that go sailing these days. Some people don't know a good thing when they see one!

 

[Tranona]

The boat is bequeather to his nephew in my will, but I'm hoping I shall live to hand it over myself when I can no longer use it. In that case, I hope the registration plus my husband's will can be accepted as proof of ownership.

I shall have a look at the relevant section of the RYA site as you suggest.

The correct procedure is for your husband's executor to execute a Bill of Sale transferring title of his share to you and then have that registered with Cardiff. Then the boat is clearly yours. A will is only an intention and it is the executor's job to implement the provisions of the will. You can get a BofS form from the registry.

If you do gift it to your nephew while you are still alive and want him to actually own it then transfer it with a BofS and register the change. If, however you wish to retain title but allow him to use it, your executor will do the eventual transfer in accordance with your wishes.

Absence of the original BofS is not a problem - indeed there may well never have been one, but just an invoice. However, the registry would have been satisfied that your husband had clear title at the time. I have a 1963 boat that was registered but no BofS, but in those days the registry had local offices and would have checked title directly with the yard and buyer.

 

[jwilson]

The correct procedure is for your husband's executor to execute a Bill of Sale transferring title of his share to you and then have that registered with Cardiff. Then the boat is clearly yours. A will is only an intention and it is the executor's job to implement the provisions of the will. You can get a BofS form from the registry.

If you do gift it to your nephew while you are still alive and want him to actually own it then transfer it with a BofS and register the change. If, however you wish to retain title but allow him to use it, your executor will do the eventual transfer in accordance with your wishes. - snipped -

Absolutely correct. A variation of signing a bill of sale as executor after a death can be as "Deputy" for an owner still living but incapable of signing, assuming the person signing has been appointed as a deputy by the Court of Protection.

 

[GTom]

Yes, there have been cases, although they rarely get into the public domain because they get settled before they get to court. The two most obvious are unregistered loans secured on the boat, although these are more difficult to enforce than secured loans, and hidden shared ownership. For example boat sold by one party in a marriage breakup where the boat is in fact co owned.

Because title does not have to be registered anywhere there is always a possibility of another claimant simply because there is no certain way of checking the title document from the previous purchase. That is why a good trail of title changes reduces the possibility of a third party claim. The more times the boat has changed hands without challenge the less likely there is to be one. A registered boat also reduces the chances because the registry insists on a sound title trail as a condition of registration, although not as stringent as in the past.

Hopefully in the future poor title histories will be less common as for the last 20 years or so new boat documents, including HIN numbers have been much better, so there is a better chance that subsequent owners will have kept the documentation trail intact.

Some cases made it to the media, I have no idea what legal measures can be done to protect the new owner from hidden debts. (and why does the law recognizes in rem actions on a non-registered subject even without HID)

Even with a bill of sale at hand, can someone prove that the owner hasn't sold half of the boat two months before and "forgets" about the new bill?

An interesting aspect, what happens with hidden loans and owners if the new owner registers the boat under a foreign flag?

 

[Daydream believer]

We rarely disagreed about matters concerning the boat, but he did occasionally talk about fitting davits for a dinghy. I was agin the idea and used to tell him he could fit one davit on his side if he liked, but there would be no davit on my side. Silly idea. The stern is far to narrow.......

Had to laugh when I read this. It reminded me of the long running saga of one NickS where it all started out with several owners on a boat & one owner ( The commodore of a club) fitted a massive outboard & forbade Nick S to use it.
It ran for ages with muck slung at everyone whether they had a part or not, even the poor old club.
Wonder what happened to him????

 

[Tranona]

An interesting aspect, what happens with hidden loans and owners if the new owner registers the boat under a foreign flag?

That depends on the nature of the register. Some (like the SSR) are not a register of title, so registration is irrelevant. If it is a register of title as many are, then the register will have its own requirements (just like ours) of evidence of clear title before accepting the boat (and the owner!).

 

[GTom]

That depends on the nature of the register. Some (like the SSR) are not a register of title, so registration is irrelevant. If it is a register of title as many are, then the register will have its own requirements (just like ours) of evidence of clear title before accepting the boat (and the owner!).

Right, I suppose it's all the new owner's job to bring evidence and the new reg might only provide some protection if the claims expire faster in the new jurisdiction.

 

[Tranona]

Right, I suppose it's all the new owner's job to bring evidence and the new reg might only provide some protection if the claims expire faster in the new jurisdiction.

There is no legal requirement in the UK to either register a boat nor register any charge against it. A boat does not have any legal status - it is just another asset like a television! So the history of title depends on accurate records being kept of transfer of title and the Bill of Sale is the most convenient way of doing this (although not the only way of proving title).

The major safeguard against unregistered charges is lenders' insistence on such security, either by way of a formal registered charge or in recent times, retention of documents to prevent a sale without accounting for their interest. In practise this works well enough to the extent that there is no pressure to change the situation. It does of course lead to the rare possibility of claims against title for which there is no written record attached to the boat. How a court would deal with that will depend on the facts of the case, but are likely to favour the claim of a "good faith" buyer. The buyer also has the possibility of a claim against the seller who through the BofS declared that he both had title to sell and that the boat was free of any charges against it.

 

[GTom]

Right, a correct bill of sale, establishing the responsibility of the seller regarding all pre-sale liabilities should provide sufficient deterrence for most well-established sellers, who have more to loose on a charge of fraud sale. Otherwise it's a lengthy court procedure if the seller "disappears", which might cost the buyer a full season of sailing. I don't know how and when the Shizelle-case finaly ended...

 

[snowleopard]

Purely as a matter of interest - My boat - home built - is SSR registered. When clearing into Martinique, the French official read 'this does not constitute proof of ownership' on the certificate. He then asked to see the proof of ownership. I told him it was on the boat and would he like me to fetch it? He declined and I deduced he was showing off his command of English. I wonder what he would have made of me producing a thick wad of material receipts and photos of the build.